Philosophy Friday -- Model Railroading in the Information Age

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

“Model Railroading in the Information Age”

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that I think this whole “personal computer” fad thing might be gaining some popularity and it’s entirely possible that computers could be here to stay. The advent of the personal computer and the accompanying revolution / evolution in smaller, cheaper, more capable electronic gizmos has had a profound impact on the Model Railroading hobby. Of course I’m sure I don’t have to tell most of you that seeing as how we’re all busy conversing about trains on a computer-based electronic forum.

From DCC to nifty electronic accessories such as switch controllers, train detection, “welding” simulators, and the like, electronics has wormed its way into the hobby and carved out a definite niche. The cost of DCC decoders, for instance, has gotten cheap enough to the point that locomotives come with the decoders pre-installed by the manufacturer as practically a toss-in item-- and indeed, more notice would be given to a new locomotive that arrived without one.

Not everybody has DCC though of course. Some people choose to continue along the “old fashioned” way with DC and block controls. But even they often have electronic train detection circuits and perhaps electronically-controlled signaling systems. And I’d wager that probably all of them, or nearly all, have some sort of electronic throttle pack, even if it isn’t DCC.

So, My Questions For Today Are:

– What electronic gizmos do you have working on your layout?

– Are you a DCC-er or favor DC Block-Control?

– How "c

2

I have to agree. It does look like the world wide market for computers may exceed 6. [:)]

I am firmly in the DCC camp. Wireless controllers sold me. Sound is a nice bonus.

My retirement layout (hopefully to begin this winter after prepping the basement) will be a walk around using DCC. The Ma&Pa was dark in 1953 so no signals. No hidden track either - just a simple point to point shortline with hand thrown turnouts and interchanges at each end.

Enjoy

Paul

3

An interesting topic John. These Philosophy Friday sessions really get good [:)] (now where’s Crandell?)

Let’s see if I can get in on this weekend’s discussion [:)]

well, technically none since I’m still putting it together. [swg] Besides the auto-reverser which I didn’t need per se (Ihave the DPDT switch… the LHS cut me a deal on the price since I bought a bunch of other stuff… but the benefits of a B&M store are for another Friday), things are going to be relatively low-key in the electronics dept for a while. I have considered some degree of signalling/block detection as well.

DCC all the way. Just getting back into the hobby after school got too much in the way (I’m apparently in the minority here – sub 30 [;)]). I could have gone either way, but finding a good price on a NCE Powercab recently sealed the deal. If you were to look under the layout though, you would think I was wiring for DC …

With the layout as small as it is, I could go either way. I know enough about DC wiring to get myself into trouble, so even without the pre-made gizmos… fact of the matter is though, we’ve had electronic gizmos in the hobby for a LONG time. They’re just smaller, and mass-produced (on some scale anyway) now.

[quote user=“jwhitten”]

– How have electronic systems and components aided (assisted) you in your pursuit of the hobby, aside from the obvious. For instance, if you have a computer, DCC, train detection, and electronically controlled turnouts and signaling, how does that affect “operations” on your layout? Do you think it adds / facilitates things,

4

  1. Not too many yet, since the layout is still under (re-)construction. But I have plans for, at the very least, a full DCC implementation including but not limited to block detection, basic signaling, DCC-actuated switch machines, and a computer connection with some type of layout software to tie it all together (probably JMRI, since I use it already anyway). In the scenery department there are plans for a working traffic light, a set of working crossing gates, and some other visual and/or audio layout animation as well. Some animation will probably be tied to various layout events, such as a station announcement when a passenger train arrives or leaves the station, while other animation may not be.

  2. DCC. It’s my opinion that on the layout as a whole, I personally would be able to do more things with less wiring/work/whatever by using “smart” devices rather than by trying to make discreet wiring “smart”. Of course, other folks with other inte

5

As a DC only user it’s nice to hear that we’ve been upgraded to just “old fashioned”!!! I have actually had DCC users ask me if I wasn’t smart enough to install and operate a DCC system…DUH!!!

So now instead of saying “duh gee!! Look at all da pretty lights” I can answer, I’m sorry, I can’t help it, I’m just “old fashioned” you know, got it from my Mother’s side of the family.

Mark

6

John,

My approach is a mix of old school and new school.

Still DC but with Aristo Train Engineer wireless radio throttles. These provide excelent speed control and wireless operation at a reasonable cost with no decoder installation or costs.

Walk around control - using a relay based cab selection system that allows cabs to be assigned to track sections from multiple locations.

Signaling and simplified CTC - I consider signaling very important both as a visual effect and as an operational element. My signals use sold state inductive current detectors, but the signal logic and CTC control is relay based. It actually uses circuits very similar to those used on the prototype in my modeled era - early 1950’s.

No sound, don’t care for it in HO. But there are future plans for layout based sound effects like bells, horn and whistles.

The advanced cab control, turnout selection, signaling and simplified CTC are all intergrated into one wiring system and it is actually wired off the layout and installed with a minimum of connections. The whole thing is an adaptation of MZL control by Ed Ravenscroft.

It provides the following features:

Standing locos with lights on

Built in collision avoidance

One button turnout routing through complex interlockings or routes

Walk around control with or without CTC OR central panel control for display running

Full working signaling and true working interlockings and interlocking signals

Built in “block overrun” protection

Why? Well I considered DCC, but signaling would still require a completely seperate infrastructure. With my system there are very few propriatary items and those could be replaced or built if necessary. Most of it is standard, off the shelf electronics, generally low in individual cost.

I looked into computerized block control and DCC. I also looked into computer controlled signals. I was not comfortable with spending large sums on hardware

7

Well, I’m not old fashion, just old (pushing 70). I retired 3 years ago and started my lifelong dream layout about 1 year ago. I started as I alway did with DC and before I got 25% thru I jumped into DCC. Wow, this is what model railroading should be! BUT, the biggest electronic gadget I have come to appreciate more than any is the computer, and more specifically this MRR Forum. If we didn’t have this medium I probably would not have gone to DCC. The information and help here is unbelievable. I don’t care what problem, recommendation or just curiousity I have, the answer is ususally only an hour away. And because of this, I have 9 DCC locos running, an auto-reverse unit in the plans, a fully automatic turntable, 4 sound effect modules (old SAW conversions) and numerous LED lighting effects. I can’t call them gizmos because I wouldn’t want to have my layout without them. (I guess you could call the SAW sound modules Gizmos?). I even plan to get a PM3 and download some sounds in my sound decoders; never saw that coming! Now, I read a lot of the posts to see what others are doing, asking and the info exchange that follows. This is like the fourth dimension of model railroading. Keep it up y’all.

Bob

8

There is much more to model railroading in the information age than DCC & Sound and a number of electronic gimmicks and gadgets.

But let´s start one by one.

I am a DCC user, because it lets me take up my favorite role of an engineer driving a train without having to do a heavy dose of wiring. I also enjoy the sound features, although there is still a lot of room for improvement. The layout which I am about to start, will be wired for DCC, but at first run on DC, as I have only one loco (not chipped yet), and I need to save up the funds to buy a DCC system.

I am very cautious about those electronic gizmos which are sometimes applied to enhance a layout. I find that this can easily be overdone. A layout is made to run trains and not an amusement park. In my humble opinion, those flickering lights, turning wind mills and whatever only provide a distraction from the real objective of a layout - trains! I think it is better to enhance the operation of a layout than to include those distracting action items. Action is no substitute for operation.

As I am not much for those gizmos, I am not attached to them - I even could do without DCC (and will have to do for a little while).

The above said, the information age has opened a new dimension of model railroading. The internet has provided a source of information on my favorite prototype, allows me to shop for what I need for my layout and enabled me to communicate with friends world wide - my presence in this forum is the proof.

I would not want to miss this!

9

[quote user=“ATLANTIC CENTRAL”]

John,

My approach is a mix of old school and new school.

Still DC but with Aristo Train Engineer wireless radio throttles. These provide excelent speed control and wireless operation at a reasonable cost with no decoder installation or costs.

Walk around control - using a relay based cab selection system that allows cabs to be assigned to track sections from multiple locations.

Signaling and simplified CTC - I consider signaling very important both as a visual effect and as an operational element. My signals use sold state inductive current detectors, but the signal logic and CTC control is relay based. It actually uses circuits very similar to those used on the prototype in my modeled era - early 1950’s.

No sound, don’t care for it in HO. But there are future plans for layout based sound effects like bells, horn and whistles.

The advanced cab control, turnout selection, signaling and simplified CTC are all intergrated into one wiring system and it is actually wired off the layout and installed with a minimum of connections. The whole thing is an adaptation of MZL control by Ed Ravenscroft.

It provides the following features:

Standing locos with lights on

Built in collision avoidance

One button turnout routing through complex interlockings or routes

Walk around control with or without CTC OR central panel control for display running

Full working signaling and true working interlockings and interlocking signals

Built in “block overrun” protection

Why? Well I considered DCC, but signaling would still require a completely seperate infrastructure. With my system there are very few propriatary items and those could be replaced or built if necessary. Most of it is standard, off the shelf electronics, generally low in individual cost.

I looked into computerized block control and DCC. I also looked into computer controlled signals. I was not comforta

10

I converted to DCC about two years ago and when I did, I couldn’t wait to tear out the old block systems and it multitude of switches and wires. I did considerable research before I converted and I think that made quite a difference in selecting the systems that works best for me. It has just made life easier and I am firmly committed to it. What interests me as all the possibilities that it brings to a layout - especially with, what I will call, the plug and play capability.

Looking down the road, as time and funds permit I will probably add some other nifty little devices but right now i am just content.

11

I try to avoid most “electronic gizmos” as I feel the more you add, they more prone to some sort of failure at a critical time (during an open-house, for instance) one’s layout becomes. All too often I’ve been present at someone else’s layout when such a glitch occurred and saw the owner’s embarrassment and frustration as he tried to get things running again.

I’ve been with DC block-control for decades and after seeing some of the unexplained malfunctions in two friend’s DCC equipped large layouts that I “operate” on crippling operating sessions, I’ve steered well clear of making the transition myself. DC works flawlessly for me…why change? And considering that my layout was designed for “operations” employing a single operator, DCC can offer me no particular benefit over my current DC system anyway. My operating system is through an Aristo wireless radio throttle that I’ve used for years and love it.

Essentially lacking “gizmos”, except for a background sound system under my urban scene to produce city sounds, I have no real commitment to any gizmos, so the question is moot in my case.

[quote]

– How have electronic systems and components aided (assisted) you in your pursuit of the hobby, aside from the obvious. For instance, if you have a computer, DCC, train detection, and electronically controlled turnouts and signaling, how does that affect “operations” on your layout? Do you think it

12

I like electronics. That became my major occupation in life. When computers came out, I was in hog heaven. I also like all kinds of gizmos.

I have DCC, although not a wireless system. All of my locomotives have sound except my trackmobile and my 45 ton and 44 ton switchers. Two of my cabooses have working marker lights, and one of them is controlled with a DCC decoder installed in it.

On my layout I have a couple of auto reversers, operating crossing gates and flashers at one road crossing, a flashing hotel sign, full block detection, full signals, mainline turnouts are computer controlled, and a computer to provide a dispatcher panel and to operate it all. Of course I hold monthly operating sessions. My layout is still under construction and I have other gizmos that will be installed as I go, including the electronic welder circuit.

I could give my gizmos up if I had to, but I don’t really see that happening.

I think computers and micro processor controlled gizmos make the model world come to life and seem more realistic, particularly during operations. When the locomotives are moving, you hear them running. You can blow for the grade crossings and other situations. Any kind of animation adds to bringing life to our model world, no matter how simple it may seem. If it occurred in the real world, it should be effective on our layouts.

Also, there are a few electronic tools that make the hobby easier. Electronic calculators, auto ranging digital multimeters, and there is a level out now that will let you measure grades.

13

None, unless you define the guts and plumbing of a MRC power pack as a ‘gizmo.’

Actually, about half way between. My take on MZL is different from Sheldon’s. It IS analog DC, but without all of the individual block selectors. Admittedly, it is complex to design and install. It isn’t dependent on proprietary devices and incorporates features based on cheap, standard parts that require expensive electronic ‘boxes’ if attempted with DCC.

I like the challenge of designing and building ‘interesting’ electrical (NOT electronic) circuits out of plain-jane components. I DON’T like being at the mercy of ‘Made in China’ electronic black boxes of mysterious function and questionable reliability. If this be heresy in the digital age, so be it.

I have built power supplies from components, so even if my MRC packs were to go Poof! and vanish, I could (and would) soldier on regardless.

Other than bookkeeping functions, and the word processor/printer generation of some waybills, the whole idea is a non-starter.

[quote]
– What about the gee-whiz gizmos, lik

14

You might want to change the topic since none of the questions you posed nor any of the answers i have read so far really have anything to do with information or the “information age”. They have everything to do with electronics or circuitry. All the questions are about hardware and not about content or data.

(Q: How many programmers does it take to change a light bulb?

A: They can’t do it, its a hardware problem.)

15

That’s true, and I realized it after I posted it, but left it as it was.

16

To explain a little more about MZL control for those who may not know, it is a system that makes extensive use of X sections or floating blocks which rely on turnout position to route power rather than having to assign every track section (block) to a cab.

While my version does use a series of pushbuttons to assign cabs to primary track sections, for every primary section there are typically 2 or more secondary sections which are handled automaticly.

This DRAMATICLY reduces the button pushing, switch switching, etc, that cab control is often associated with. Many trains move great distances around the layout with only the pushing of a few buttons and the alignment of needed turnouts - the second task being required with any control system.

When in CTC mode, Engineers need only run their loco and watch their signals, the dispatcher handles the turnouts and cab assignments. Gee, that sound no different than DCC from the Engineers point of view.

Sheldon

17

My plans for a layout go like this: I’d like to be DCC.

Signals? I may piut them in for the CMPA diamond with the CHessie (notice I didn’t say CSX) and I;ke to put in a couple of semaphores protecting the aging incline, tied more into rockslide/washout protection than actual occumpancy, but beyond that, it’s mother-may-I.

Therw will be at least one set of Wig Wags though.

Gizmos: Over on another board, I was introduced to a working Defect Detecotr. It prerecords words, but counts the number of times the wheels break the infrared beam. Axle count. So I want one of those. I’;d liek to see if the compnay will modify the defect detecotr, because they have one that’s a read-out only and will power signals into a natural disaster reporter. Set the occurance to an incredibly high number, place the sensor somewhere, and let it trip as trains pass it. The panel will be int he dispatcher’s office, and only he and any train approaching the Semaphores on the grade will know theres a problem it’s up to him to stop the railroad to fix it.

Otherwise, it’s all Mother-May-I.

The gee-whiz stuff I consider more special effect. I don’t have a use for Hobos in a modern Southern Indiana. Ilike the fireboxes in steamers when I notice it, but I cannot say it’s a feature I actively look for.

Ditch and Mars Lights I find to be important parts of the models though, sinc they have a job to do in getting motorist’s attention. I do like the looks of them though and will be keeping them.

18

Interesting set of questions.

My initial interest in things electrical came from wiring Lionel layouts as a kid. We couldn’t afford new stuff, so my dad would bring home somewhat operating, used items. We would rewire controllers and solenoids and generally restore these pieces.

Down the road, I became an electrical engineer (mostly comms) and later moved into project management and planning. Like many, I have no wish to spend my hobby time doing the same kinds of things I do in professional life. Spending more hours at home learning and applying new software just doesn’t appeal to me anymore. There was a time when I enjoyed writing my own code and designing my own circuits, but not now. I still build my own computers and model railroading electronics, from components and designs of others (usually with my own modifications).

What does fascinate me now is the mechanical side of model railroading. I would much rather modify a locomotive mechanically to get the ultimate performance I desire on straight DC than program in such performance through a decoder or throttle. Then, any performance enhancements from the throttle/decoder is just icing on the cake.

With a small, so far lone wolf layout, there is no need for DCC, which would be take away a future locomotive acquisition for me in terms of cost. Sound in my tiny HO and HOn3 models of small 19th Century prototypes may eventually come, though I’ll probably experiment with moving under the table sound first, for both the trains and ambient sounds. I would also like to experiment with fog generation for my harbor scenes. To complete the theater experience, some form of changing lighting will also be necessary.

If I join a modular group and build some modules, then I will have to switch to DCC. All the modular groups under consideration use Digitrax or NCE as their standard. I’m not opposed to DCC, but I will miss building my own throttles to try o