Philosophy Friday -- Scratchbuilt versus RTR... :-)

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Here’s a question which I’m sure is guaranteed to generate some interesting discussion… just PLEASE be nice to each other, this is just for fun, okay? [:D]

There have been countless debates in countless forums for decades regarding the “veracity” of one type of “model railroading” versus another. In fact the arguments-- er, discussions invariably divide into several camps, typically the “scratchbuilders” versus the “ready-to-runners” (RTR). Accordingly each camp trots out their tired old polemics and with which promptly sets about beating the other about the head and shoulders…

I reckon it all comes down to “You just might be a Model Railroader if…”

So I’d like to ask / propose a question-- a slight variation on the classical version-- what constitutes a “scratchbuilder” and what constitutes a “Ready-to-Runner”(RTR) ??

Is this an easy question to answer? Where do you draw the line?

Is a scratchbuilder someone who meticulously constructs a model using unfrabricated source materials? Is an RTR’er someone who simply buys something off-the-shelf?

Whichever way your head is moving at the moment (up and down or left and right), is someone who buys everything “off-the-shelf” but then proceeds to combine it all in a unique and personal manner-- i.e., “builds a layout”-- REALLY and RTR’er? Or have they “scratchbuilt” their layout? Likewise, is someone who meticulously sets out to create a model using “unfabricated source materials” REALLY a scratchbuilder if they “cheat” and use plastruct, brass tubing, brick or stone wall styrene sheets, windows and door castings from third-party suppliers, etc… Really, when you think about it, aren’t they simply doing the same thing? Meticulously assembling a model from “RTR” parts?

Or does sawing a piece of wood or cutting a piece of plastic exempt you from the “RTR” label? Getting glue on your fingers, banging your finger with the hammer, or any of the other myriad things tha

2

The difference lies in pre-fabrication.

To “scratchbuild” something, you don’t need to cut down the tree, then mill the wood into scale lumber.

Building a model from a sheet of styrene and then adding commercial detail parts is obviously not the same thing as buying an RTR model, adding the supplied couplers, and then running it.

3

Interesting subject and one I am ssure will garner a lot of discussion which will eventually break down into the usual petty bickering among a couple of members.

For the most part I like to scratch build. However, recently I was told that a project I build was not scratchbuilt but instead a collection of parts from various manifacturers. (one of the reasons I don’t post much on this forum anymore). While it is true I used a comercially available motor and some trucks from the parts bin. I did hand build the entire car body and frame. I know that the NMRA has a set of guide lines as to what constitutes a scratch build -vs- a kit bash. Personaly I don’t care what those are as I only build for my satisfaction now (another reason I don’t post what I build here anymore). I hope this thread stays civil.

Dan

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…and the eventual demise of this thread. Fellas, I would LOVE to see this topic discussed in a reasonable manner. However, I do not have high hopes for it from repeated past experiences.

Just to reiterate the OP’s opening statement: Please keep your responses civil and respectful and avoid the “only real MRRers…” argument. That’s one way to guarantee it getting locked for sure.

Thanks,

Tom

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Oh-- Kit-bashing. There’s an aspect I forgot / neglected to cover. Very good point. Perhaps someone who buys all their stuff “off-the-shelf” in RTR form and then procedes to combine it into a “unique and personal” layout is a kit-basher.

And to address the previous respondant-- its all in your perspective, isn’t it? Where you get the wood… did you do up your own molds to produce your own styrene brick sheets… when is it truly “scratch” and truly all “RTR” ??? I suppose someone with a deeper level of technical prowress might take someone to task if they didn’t personally manipulate the molecular structure atom-by-atom to create their own materials…

Sure you might think that argument is extreme-- but really when you think about it, aren’t all of the “scratchbuilding” versus “RTR” lines that get drawn pretty arbitrary?

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Here’s my definition of RTR. Complete train layout bought and purchased in a briefcase. Simply plug and play.

Do I want one? Oh He** yes [:)]

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The problem is partly letting the labels be a surrogate for describing degrees or levels of skill. If you can take an Athearn blue box kit (of sainted memory) and scrape off every molded-on ladder and grab iron without ruining a rivet or disturbing the flat surface in the least and do a perfect job of installing separate grabs stirrup steps and ladders, you may not be a scratchbuilder per se but may be awesomely skilled.

If you can take a RTR unpainted car and paint and decal and weather it to the professional level I have seen some guys do – I refer here to something well beyond just a “nice job of painting and lettering” – then yeah you are a RTR modeler I guess but how inadequate that label becomes.

Over the years there have been guys who have laboriously milled their own wood and cast their own stone or brick walls (and it is not all that long ago that Al Armitage and others had to make their own L and H and other structural shapes out of flat strip styrene), so while we may not require that those steps be followed to qualify for a model being scratchbuilt we have to concede that it can at least be part of the equation and that there is scratchbuilding that goes beyond scratchbuilt, so to speak! NMRA contest rules have their own guidelines for these sorts of issues, but I think most people would regard a structure as scratch-built if the base, walls, framing, and roof were all individually cut from sheet material (including sheet brick, sheet wood siding, sheet roofing material etc) and assembled but the doors and windows were plastic or metal castings. If someone built their own doors and windows out of wood or styrene stock that would certainly take things to another level, just as with the person who casts their own brick or stone foundation, but I think the structure itself would be regarded as scratchbuilt under most normal uses of the word.

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A RTR modeler is one who buys/acquires models of major components that are preassembled and may be used without major fabrication/assembly and uses them without major modification.

A scratchbuilder is one who builds/fabricates/assembles models of major components from basic materials or generic subassemblies (such as a motor, wheelset or light bulb).

If a modeler takes the basic materials, fabricates parts and assembles them to build a model he is a scratchbuilder.

If a manufacturer takes the basic materials, fabricates parts and sells them unassembled, its a kit.

If a modeler takes a kit or kits and builds something sustantially different than what the kit was intended to build, he is a kitbasher.

If a modeler takes a kit or kits and builds something sustantially the same as what the kit was intended to build, he is a kit builder.

If a manufacturer takes the basic materials, fabricates parts and sells them assembled, its RTR.

If a modeler buys a RTR model, then he is a RTR modeler.

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You should start out with a pole asking if people classify themselves primarily as a collector, operator or a model builder. Most people are a blend of two or three but their chief driving force in the hobby right now is one of them. And yes it can change over time.

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Hmmm…So if I scratchbuilt all the structures on my layout and fabricated all of my rolling stock and I buy ONE…just ONE RTR model that makes me a RTR modeler? Hmmmmmmm…

How about those of us who have done all aspects of what you list above?

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I’ve only been in this hobby for just over two years, but I’d have to question the need to include the word “versus”.

Why do they need to be mutually exclusive of the other? One of the major appeals and strengths of this hobby is it’s diversity (of scale, methodology, and focus) that seems to be unique to each and every hobbyist.

For instance, what’s more accurate - a highrail or tinplate S scale layout that operates exactly as a prototype, or an imaginary (I think the common term here is “freelance”) but scale Sn3 layout railroad that never existed? Both are different approaches that share some level of “acceptance” by people of different backgrounds and focus.

I’ve had the new subscriber membership to the NMRA, and I have to wonder if the MMR program has helped in creating this divide. I think it’s fantastic that people work towards their MMR, and I have nothing but respect for their efforts (especially when they continue to share their knowledge!), but it doesn’t diminish to me the efforts of another hobbyiest who has worked in a different direction during their free time.

The one trend that I’ve observed in my short time is that the best work in modeling seems to be done by the folks who are enjoying themselves first and foremost. If by enjoying themselves that means buying RTR and/or scratchbuilding or kitbashing to create a model they want, than that’s alright.

Maybe it’s just me though, as it seems that there is so much unnecessary Balkinization elsewhere, that I’d rather keep it out of my hobby time. But I think I’ll continue to do both, buy RTR when it suits my needs, and scratchbuild or kitbash models as I need them. Having choices is a great thing!

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Based on the modelers I know, or have known in my 40 years in this hobby, few modelers are one or the other.

In the old days, very little that was RTR, actually ran, at least not very well or for very long.

So we built kits for most everything, be they Athearn easy to assemble or Silver Streak “not to hard” or Ambroid “truely craftsman” kits.

Locos did come RTR or in kits, some of the RTR was pretty good for the time. Brass was expensive, but not outrageous.

TODAY, we still have nice craftsman kits, shake the box kits and a new feature - RTR that actually looks good and runs.

No mater how much of a “builder” you are, you would be silly not to take advantage of at least some of it if it suits your needs/wants.

I do it all, scratch build, assemble kits of all skill levels, kitbash - with the starting point being anything that suits the job, and I buy RTR.

All the RTR does it seems end up getting “something” done to it. I run ONLY Kadee couplers so they all get changed. I have my own prefered free rolling truck choice/formula, so most of them get changed.

I am a freelancer, so I buy a lot of undecorated or painted/unlettered and send it the paint shop to become “ATLANTIC CENTRAL”

And as I often explain, none of my fleet of RTR steam locos was RTR in my view. Not the most expensive BLI or Rivarossi pieces or my many Bachmann pieces. They all needed minor ajustments in addition to real Kadee’s and my lettering. So how RTR were they?

I think the real conflict in view is not if you buy/use RTR or not, but rather your expectations of products and their prefection, preformance, operation, completeness, etc - right out of the box.

Us “modeler” types don’t mind this “ajustments” we have to make, its part of the fun.

13

In my very humble opinion, it is certainly not an either/or question. Not all of us have the ability to handlay our track, scratchbuild our locos and rolling stock, detail them with selfmade castings, scratchbuild all our structures and make our trees ourselves and paint our own backdrop, just to top it off.

I have yet to see the layout where every single item has been build and not bought R-T-R or assembled.

Should we exclude someone from the hobby, because he does not have the time or the dexterity for scratchbuilding?Spare me the answer!

Here in Germany, R-T-R is much more wide-spread and the need to scratchbuild is far less, as the choice of locos is much bigger than in the US. The standardization efforts of the prototype makes it much easier to supply a full range of locos, with only very few gaps left to be covered by a number of smaller businesses offering highly detailed kits. So I guess, anybody modeling German prototype is just one lucky a guy.

I´ll stick with US prototype and I am happy that there are at least some locos and cars of my favorite road available in the market, so I don´t have to scratchbuild them, which I am not so good in - for the lack of the tools I would need to have!

After all, our common hobby leaves so much room for everybody to enjoy it!

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John,Excellent question…

As for me…I been in the hobby over 55 years and am yet to scratchbuild my first model.I never built a wood structure kit…[:O] I have built 2 wooden caboose kits eons ago.

You see I am a very happy minimalist modeler that prefers prototype operation with plastic kit structures over building a wood kit or scratchbuilding…Of course I have kitbashed structures.

Isn’t this a great hobby?

So,am I a

Scratchbuilder-no.

Craftsman-no.

A RTR’'er…Perhaps

Just call me a happy minimalist modeler…[(-D]

15

OK—glad to see someone opening up a can of worms to see what they look like[:-^][swg]

I’m a bit of everything myself. I don’t think that there is a need to get into a period of existential angst over this split in the first place.

But some, I feel, might.[}:)]

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Here is what I have to say on the matter. To get the layout done as fast as possible use RTR. THEN when the layout is “finished” you start gradually replacing all the RTR stuff with scratch built stuff. This way, you can get the layout done quickly and still have plenty to do when its “finished.”

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I don’t see any versus. I see RTR and scratchbuilding as the ends of a spectrum. (No, NOT the Bachmann variety!) Here’s the entire spectrum, as split out by my flawed prism:

  • RTR - out of the box, onto the layout.

  • Tweaked RTR - out of the box, to the workbench, wheels, trucks and couplers inspected/corrected/changed if necessary. No cosmetic changes.

  • Cosmetically improved RTR - renumbered, weathered, maybe partially or completely repainted.

  • Assembled kit - a broad and blurry line ranging from Athearn BB to craftsperson, “Handful of sticks and a set of plans.”

  • Superdetailed (can start as kit or RTR) - adding (or removing) bits and pieces to bring the model into line with the prototype’s piping, pumps, brake fittings etc… Should (but doesn’t always) include a full cosmetic treatment.

  • Kitbashed - cut-and-piece one or several kits to produce: 1. A more exact representation of a specific prototype, starting with a ‘generic’ kit or RTR item. 2. A ‘foobie’ to more exactly fit a certain ground plan. 3. A wild feat of imagineering with no acknowledged parents.

  • Semi-scratch - using complete mechanisms under heavily-modified or ‘scratchbuilt’ superstructures, or mingling kit subassemblies with scratch-assembled sections to achieve a desired appearance.

  • Scratchbuilt with some commercial content - model assembled with commercial trucks, stamped ends, doors, brake gear, steam loco details (including drivers but not complete frame or mechanism,) commercial window castings…

  • Totally Scratchbuilt - from raw materials, including turning wheels, assembling trucks, assembling windows from strip

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I classify myself as a Model Railroader. Not a Railroad Modeler, a Model Railroader. I, as Driline has said, have done all and find uses for all. No, I don’t claim to be good, I’m just a beginner of sorts, but I don’t plan on buying exclusively kits, nor do I intend on scratchbuilding every structure. I enjoy kits, and of course my world includes structures that are not available as kits so scratchbuilding becomes necessary and that’s OK because I enjoy and actually get more satisfaction from the completed project. Not that I don’t get satisfaction from a completed kit.

I do have a question, and that is why all the concern over what makes you a what? Not just to the OP, but this subject has been brought up many many times. Labeling always causes these conversation to deteriorate. Some get offended as to what others are being called as it seems to invade their territory and they get offended as you are taking something hard earned away from them or cheapening an award they recieved. IMHO, the titles someone wears is purely relative to ones own perspective. The argument is and always will be “where to draw the line.” There are those who say that to be a Scratchbuilder you must use all raw materials such as toothpicks or coffee stirs, flat pieces of balsa or styrene and keep your fingers off the premade store bought windows, doors, details etc. “That’s a form of kitbashing. Scratchbuilding is everything from scratch”. All the way to, "my railroad as a whole is scratchbuilt because my premade structures are no different than your premade bought windows.

I personally admire every attemp everyone does at creating their little world. I enjoy looking at the layouts that consist of many or all prefab structures, as well as those that are kit built structures. My jaw drops at some scratchbuilt empires and I’ll admit, when someone says it’s scratch built and it looks perfect, I’m in awe. One thing I don’t feel i

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John,

I use both ‘RTR’ and scratch-build/kitbash items for my model railroad. I have scratch-built a lot of structures. I do use commercial scribed siding and windows/doors for the most part. I have never ‘scratch-built’ an engine, but have painted/detailed a lot of engines over the years. All of the track on my current layout is standard ‘flex’ track and commercial turnouts - I have better things to do that hand spike(a previous layout was all hand spiked with code 70 rail). My point is what are your priorities?

I am the contest chairman for a NMRA Region, and using commercial parts is not cheating. You may lose ‘scratch-building’ points, but a poorly scratch-built set of doors/windows will lose ‘construction’ points. The modeler has to balance the gain in scratch-building points vs how good of a craftsman they are. From the personal viewpoint, if the part or material is commercially available - I use it. Maybe when I retire in two years, I will want to ‘scratch’ as much as possible. It is all personal choice…

Jim Bernier

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I have to agree with Barry, I’m not sure what value this thread will serve, but I’ll bite.

Personally, when I view another persons layout, I try to understand his vision and what he is wanting to portray, be it a little branchline in the desert with 0-4-0’s or the BNSF mainline through Glacier. I never look at the layout to “measure up” the creator, that’s never been my interest in the hobby, and I don’t care to categorize people to begin with. Most of us are talented in some areas and not so much in others areas, or we aren’t interested in a certain aspect of the hobby. We go the easy route so we can spend time doing what we enjoy doing.

My Humble Opinion