I just listened to the broadcast, some food for thought. That being said, I and this is my own view didn’t hear more than a fleeting reference to railfans.
Whether we like it or not our world did change after 9/11. The major problem is not railfans, or photographers or even the cops. It is the media who has taken over and is whipping the masses into near hystria with biased reporting either pro or con depending upon the view they want.
I for one will fight for my rights, for the first time in my life I have made a donation to the ACLU (My wife has done so for years). To many people have died for the freedoms that this Country has or did have.
The media does not whip ME or MY family into near hysteria.
The closest we got to feeling concern was when we watch the United States Marines clear out a iraqi stronghold live on satellite as it happened. We did not want any of those boys hurt.
I find it interesting to see that the media keeps a clean photo set in the USA, not much is made of railfans and really graphic photos can be found on the internet.
I believe that you can take a picture or video of whatever you want, as long you dont trespass. Shooting from a public property is perfectly fine. I have shot trains and such from inside a legally parked car without too much trouble. I dont shoot trains often enough to have any trouble with anyone.
I have been into installations where they ban cameras and recording devices. I have personally witnessed blogs where employees in computer companies have been fired for making pictures of loading docks and trailers (With computers in them) availible on the net in violation of his company rules.
I have cheerfully shot trains out west from the side of the highway and recieved a toot from the whistle or a wave in response. I suspect that some regions people tend to be more “uptight” about others carrying cameras more so than others.
I for one dont intend on stopping the use of camera or camcorder any time soon. I understand the situation and will create a oppertunity to “Shoot” a subject when the time is right. Sorta like hunting a deer. You dont want the Bear stalking you at that time.
HighIron2003ar: I agree with your last post. I am glad you have not been hassled while shooting trains.
But when I am sitting in my red pickup truck, in the middle of the day, with the camera on its tripod next to the truck, and I am in a city park, and some piggie-eyed Barney Fife feels he needs to protect the world from white anglo-saxon terrorists in the middle of Wisconsin as he waddles over to me and has the “authority” (presumed, but not legally) to question me about what I am doing (like, DUH!!), then the cops have too much power and are out of control.
Life was much better when they just hid behind highway billboards and ate donuts.
Please forgive my cynical attitude, but because this country has so many real security issues of relevance (as has been discussed in other forums), it is difficult for me to take these simple-minded people seriously; but because of their badge, and the willingness of the population to tolerate this abuse of power, I must.
I still can not see what the peaple checking out photographers are trying to stop.
If I was trying to photograph some thing for an attack I would not stand out in the open with a camera and tripod. I would do it with small camera or a cell phone with a camera so nobody would know what I was doing. Also if I wanted pictures of a major stucture I just would do a web search for them. I tried a Google image search for the George Washington
bridge and got several hundred hits.
Heck, if I want to know what traffic traverses a line, and when, I can just buy a house next to the tracks and NOBODY will be able to question what I’m doing. I’ll be sitting in my own yard. If there is a large enough organization behind me, cost won’t be an object. Or I can rent a hotel room in the area. You can bet that no one will question my activities, because no one will even know what I’m doing. Darned if I’m going to stand in the middle of a public park with my camera on a tripod, attracting attention. Didn’t you notice that guy over there, “reading” the newspaper for the last 4 hours? Or the one who’s been pushing his kid on the swing since noon?
I wonder what planet these people who blather on about “a police state” are from. The only posts I’ve seen where somebody was actually confronted it was a badge heavy boob or a wanabee and was easily resolved without a trip to the gulag or Dachau. If your overactive imagination is causing you to loose sleep at night why not just crawl under the bed where the Gestapo can’t find you.
Life is mostly lived quickly, one second a person is four, the next instant the guy is 65 years old.
When I was growing up, the above mentioned stuff was always associated with commies or fasciates. Its interesting to see that this is now the republics stand on patriotism!
Finally got a chance to listen to the rest of the broadcast, just 1 last thing to add. I would never let my film, or camera equipment be taken by an officer without a search & siezure warrant. The film is technically not in plain sight, so it could possibly not be taken under the plain sight clause.
Getting stopped and questioned does not worry me too much, i am a bit concerned here though, just becasue i know how the local PD overreacts to things.
Just some words for wisdom, Read and know the Bill of Rights that covers this topic, most paticularly, the1st and 4th amendment.
Planning on being an officer myself someday soon, I will of course, repsond to any call I were to get, but if it were to be somthing of this nature, I would be reasonable and not overreact like some officers would.
Whoopee-fizz, nothin’ to get excited about. Nothing more than people overreacting, and more people overreacting to other people overreacting. Most people know who I am, and where I go, and I also have been “kindly instructed” where not to go! I’ll keep taking pictures as I see fit, and deal with any “consequences” as they arise.
Now, if those of you in cheese-land want to discuss the way our government is “protecting” us from evil cold and allergy medicine, now there’s a case of government overreaction.
Yeah, watch out for Big Brother. Uhh… is that a black helicopter? bnsf, have you ever thought about joining Paranoids Anonymous? Don’t you have anything better to do with your time than constantly starting these threads about THE MAN hassling you and your friends??? Lemme guess, THE MAN planted a computer chip in your**** to monitor your every move. It’s all part of the conspiracy.
My new AAA guide to Nebraska says lots of nice things about a huge yard the UP has in N. Platte, Nebraska. It particularly mentioned safe (and elevated) places for individuals and families to take pix, etc.
Is that still in effect? Free viewing and taking of pix? I don’t want to bend a westward trip into N. Platte if all I can see is the RR depot museum.
Funny thing is, about a year ago there was a big flap about New Jersey Transit and its photo permit policy. On another site dedicated to railfanning railfans were wrtiting in about the policy and a police state atmosphere when there appeared a submission from an NJT official who apparently WAS monitoring the website and had a few words about the policy and the members who were wrting in and NJ Sate regulations. I would not totally dismiss the idea that these posting are not being reviewd by someone in Homeland Security. If they can monitor libraries to see who is checking out what, they might very well be monitoring sites like this to see who is listening about railroad security. (If so, really, I am a Native born American who likes apple pie, mom and I fly the American flag every holiday and I think *** Cheyeny is the greatest vice-president we have had for most of this century.)
I haven’t had the opportunity to hassle a railfan yet, being one of them… and also being a cop. So far, what I have heard has been the usual attitude I run into whenever I “interact” with a member of the general public- “Why are you hassling me?”
And for all those who are worried about this country turning into some kind of power hungry state, go back and look at what happened in World War II. Taking pictures of “strategic installations”- a wild and wooly term if ever there was one- was prohibited. As the war progressed, even the sale of film and photographic paper was limited. I have even seen a photo shot by O. Winston Link- for Model Railroader, I believe- which was shot during the war- of a rail overpass that ended up as a cover photo for the magazine. The caption stated that he had taken the picture very discretely and was concerned he was breaking the law.
No one has even suggested moving all people of Arab descent away from our coasts into the peculiarly American form of concentration camps we stuck the Nisei in.
In point of fact, no one has even considered what the railroads might think about having photos taken “from public property” of THEIR operations. I’m positive that there is a PR flack who gets a migraine every time there’s a crossing accident…or where someone, exercising their 1st Amendment rights, takes a picture of a freight train stopped by the trackside McDonald’s.
Do we ask permission before taking pictures? I do. I’ve never had a problem with local law enforcement or railroad employees, when they KNOW what it is I’m doing, and they are aware of the fact I’m there. That’s a good exercise of courtesy… and safety.
(As a rule, I generally don’t bother the local cops- contrary to popular belief, not all of us are out there parked behind highway signs munching donuts waiting to waddle over and hassle the public. Some of us actually WORK.)
Too put this discussion into some context with the real world-the most interesting railroad cop I ever meet was a KGB guy along the Trans Siberian. He said no photos and I went with the flow.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not taking issue with what you are saying. But are you really suggesting we ask local law enforcement permission before we rail fan? I have always considered it a matter of courtesy that I don’t ask.
(1) If I am not doing anything illegal, I fail to see why my activites would be too much of a bother or a problem to local law enforcement.
(2) As a former prosecutor, I realize that local law enforcment does work for a living and is BUSY, I would think they could care less about my hobby so long as I don’t break any laws while doing it.
I have always thought the best way to be courteous to law enforcement is (1) don’t trespass or otherwise break the law while railfanning, (2) don’t bother law enforcement unless they have something they need to say to you, (3) if law enforcment approaches you, be polite and cooperative, and (4) if the officer tells you to do something you believe you don’t have to do, politely ask the officer his authority for his command, follow the officer’s commands regardless of his correctness, and take him to court if he made you do something illegally.
Most officers being law abiding people themselves, I don’t think I am ever going to have a problem with an officer while rail fanning. Should I run into the rarity of a non-law abiding officer, winking at him in court as the judge rules in my favor and telling the officer I will be mailing the verdit to every defense attorney in town is so much more effective than arguing with the officer on the scene.
As most officers are good people, I would like to think it would never come to this though.