No, I don’t think this belongs in the passenger train forum. I think it will make an interesting discussion, but it has no real meaning. It’s possible that none of you may agree with me that it’s interesting.
I’m looking at an old Official Guide from 1956. Specifically at Milwaukee Road Train #1, the Pioneer Limited. The train is scheduled to leave Chicago at 11:00 PM and arrive St. Paul at 7:45 AM the next morining. Continuing to Minneapolis with an arrival there at 8:25 AM.
#1 leaves Chicago with six Pullman sleeping cars for three different destinations. Four Pullmans go to Minneapolis. One Pullman gets set out at New LIsbon, WI for movement to Wausau, WI on train #217. One Pullman gets set out at La Crosse, WI for movement to Austin, MN on train #157.
At Milwaukee a Pullman to Minneapolis is added to #1.
#1 leaves Chicago with as many coaches as are required for two different destinations. All coaches except one go through to Minneapolis. One coach is set out at New Lisbon for movement to Woodruff, WI on train #217. This is the same train that handles the Wausau Pullman from New Lisbon. (Wausau is on the way to Woodruff.)
#1 also carries a dining car that operates from Chicago to Minneapolis.
Three swtich crews are going to have to work #1 at three different locations, adding one car and removing three cars.
The questions are: 1) In what order is the equipment arranged for depature from Chicago in order to minimize the work that will have to be done en route by the switch crews? 2) Where in the train do you put the Pullman originating in Milwaukee in order to minimize the work that will have to be done to #1 at New Lisbon and La Crosse?
The River sleepers (10-6) were on the rear . The town named sleepers (Raymond etc.16-4 ) were ahead of the two river sleepers as far as I can tell . The two 16-4 cars were the ones added at either Milwaukee or StPaul .
I went to Chicago in 1958 to go to school and for several years after took that train to Merrill (later Wausau when the service was cut back). By that time the set out at LaCrosse may have been eliminated, but through cars for the Valley Line continued.
My guess is that the Wausau Pullman went on the rear of the train, then the Woodruff coach, the rest of the coaches, the diner and then the rest of the pullman cars. That way, no coach passengers would have to walk through Pullman cars to get to the diner. No doubt that at that time, Milwaukee had a switch engine working the depot, so it would be a fairly easy move to pull the rear of the train off in front of the diner, make one move to pick up the Milwaukee-Minneapolis Pullman and a second move to put the train back together with that Pullman in line with the rest of the Pullman cars.
At New Lisbon the last two cars were cut off on the main, and the road crew for the Valley Line put their train together. (Although now a single track mainline with a wye conecting the branch, at the time the main was a double track and an additional stub end track at the station. Switches and crossovers allowed for efficient operations.)
Not sure about the car off at LaCrosse, but it was probably set off on a siding by the Pioneer road crew, who then doubled back on the rest of the train to get ready for departure.
The Pioneer Limited carried a good amount of head end business including, I am sure, at least one RPO. You can compare the running times of the Pioneer Limited and the Chicago-Minneapolis Hiawathas. I would guess there is at least an additional hour for the Pioneer to allow for all the work. The train did run at top allowed speeds, including the 99MPH ATS territory between Watertown and Tomah.
Thanks. I guess they knew what they were doing. I didn’t know they put the Pullmans up front. Some railroads put the sleepers on the rear out of Chicago so the first class passengers didn’t have as long of a platform walk.
I’ll suggest one thing which is only possible for me to do because I’m able to look at the '56 OG and you’re not. Instead of using the road crew and power to set out at La Crosse they could have put both set out sleepers on the rear of the train behind the Minneapolis coaches. (In line with what Randy said.)
If leaving Chicago #1 stood from front to rear: 1) Minneapolis Pullmans, 2) Dining Car, 3) Minneapolis coaches, 4) Austin Pullman, 5) Wausau Pullman/Woodruff coach; then the only “real” switching of #1 would have been adding the Pullman ahead of the diner at Milwaukee. At New Lisbon they simply dropped off the last two cars. At La Crosse they could have simply dropped off the last car.
According to the OG, #1 only had 5 minutes in La Crosse. Arrive 4:45 AM. Leave 4:50 AM. #157 for Austin was due out of La Crosse at 4:55 AM. I’d guess they just uncoupled the Pullman and roared off for the Twin Cities. #157 would then back down on the sleeper, couple up and go.
#1’s time for Chicago-St. Paul was 8 hours and 55 minutes. #3, the Afternoon Hiawatha, took 6 Hours and 15 minutes for the 410 miles. To be fair, it didn’t make much sense for #1 to leave any latter than 11:00 PM or arrive St. Paul much earlier than 7:55 AM. And besides, #1 had work to do en route.
I always wanted to ride the Pioneer Limited but I never got to.
I could be wrong about the general orientation of the Pullmans and coaches. I was thinking that if the Woodruff coach had Pullmans between it and the diner, coach passengers would not be allowed to get to the diner. That issue may be moot as, come to think of it, the diner was probably on only for breakfast service in the morning. With that, having the New Lisbon and LaCrosse cars at the rear makes sense.
In the years I road the train-'59 to '63- the Milwaukee started to cut back passenger services and somewhere in that time Pullman service on the Valley Line was dropped. By 1963, all passenger service there was cut back to Wausau. (During that time, the Olympian Hiawatha was also cut back to Butte, MT. The name was dropped and the service was provided by a “no-name” train.) An hour or so at the NU Transportation Library reviewing the Guides would get a time line for the period.
Given the intervening decades, I don’t have much memory of my rides, but one stands out. I was on the train going to Merrill on a very cold winter night and the through coach was at the end of the train. In the run between stops, the steam line kept freezing up at the coupling between our car and the car ahead, which was a Pullman. At every stop, a carman or crew member would use a fusee to melt the ice. Heat would come back on, only to shut down 10-15 minutes down the line. Train cars moving at high speeds in freezing temperatures get cold very fast. The car ahead stayed warm, but of no benefit us lowly coach passengers. Rules are rules.
Fortunately, the Alco used on the Valley Line had no problem keeping good steam in the two-three cars on that train.
IIRC, the Austin sleeper was a ‘Tri-Weekly’ run. The Austin-La Crosse train (#158) arrived in La Crosse before EB #4 arrived. IIRC, the crew off of #158 dropped the sleeper on the WB siding(platform shared with the WB main), then wyed the remaining train.
#4 got the through sleeper via a switch crew. After the branch train turned, it was parked on the WB siding again(now #157) and the switch crew would pull the sleeper off of arriving #1 and deposit it on the back of #157. It then departed for Austin. The train ran until about 1957 and may have lost the through sleeper before then.
The ‘Pioneer Limited’ had a lot of sleeper traffic in the 50’s. Much more than the competing CB&Q ‘Blackhawk’ or the C&NW ‘Northwestern Limited’
Randy, I would like to make a correction. The 10-6 sleepers were in the Lake series and the River sleepers were 8 duplex roomette, 6 roomette, 4 bedroom cars. I had a lower duplex roomette in, as I recall, the Wisconsin River in September, 1968, from Minneapolis to Milwaukee, where I stopped off with the express purpose of visiting Trains. (I had a wonderful reception from Rosemary Entringer and Mike Shaeffer; Dave Morgan was out of town.) Since there was no longer a setout car, I had to get up early. On to Chicago, I had a seat in Priest Rapids, one of the four sky-top observation parlors used on the Morning Hiawatha.
What I get out of all this, and what I should have known, is that Milwaukee trains #1 and #4, the Pioneer LImiteds, we not point to point operations. They were part of a network that linked several cities through set outs, pick ups, and connecting trains. Some cities were large, some were not.
Today, railroads seem to only concentrate on point to point. (I’m talking freight now.) IMHO, this greatly limits the amount of freight available to them and, as a result, unnecessarily limits their income. Oh well.
My '56 OG has the Austin sleeper as a six day/week operation - it didn’t operate on Saturday. It may have been reduced to tri-weekly in latter years. It seems to have been an accomodattion for business travel to and from Hormel. The Wausau sleeper probably served the same purpose for Wausau Insurance. Business people liked to be home Saturday night. Even the 20th Century Limited didn’t run on Saturdays in '56.
When passenger trains lost the business travel the need for