Looking for some plastic grab irons for some freight cars. The kadee ones are too fragile. https://www.walthers.com/side-grab-irons-red-oxide-pkg-16
The detail associates are out of stock at walters. https://www.walthers.com/freight-car-grab-irons-bracket-type-22-quot-molded-in-delrin-pkg-8
or should I just use wire ones? i dont want to drill the holes, I break to many drill bits.
From your links, I see that you need bracket-style grabs. As far as I’m aware, those are the only two companies which offer them, and both are done in engineering plastic, which is very difficult to attach to anything. Forget surface gluing, and even inserted in pre-drilled holes, the bond is tenuous. Both have mounting pins, by the way, so you’ll need to drill holes, but it won’t guarantee that they’ll stay in place.
Red Caboose offers a semi-bracket type grabiron in styrene with their X-29 boxcar, and these fit into holes cast in the body shell. While solvent-type cement will hold them firmly in place, the styrene will break more easily than the engineering plastic. Also, the bracket portion is solid rather than open.
Your choices appear to be good-looking to-scale ones which won’t stay on the car, or slightly heavier-looking ones which won’t stand much abuse or handling.
I’ve built quite a few of the Red Caboose cars, and opted to install the grabs as intended. Once the solvent cement had fully cured, I cut out the grab portion, then drilled the brackets (right through and through the car’s side, too) to accept .012" wire grabs, which were bent-over and ca’ed in place inside the car. These are strong and look decent, despite the non-open brackets:
These are the Detail Associates grabs on some slightly modified Train Miniature boxcars:
When they come out of their boxes (freight cars cycle on or off the layout at various staging yards, so are handled regularly) the grabs often need to be re-installed or straightened.
If the car side were thin enough, you might be able to use the heated tip of a screwdriver to mush-over the protruding mountin
I had thought the plastic ones might be easier to install. Didnt really want to use the the metal ones because they would be going on some scratch built cars with the sides being kinda thin, so not sure how well metal ones would hold up also.
Red Caboose (now produced by Intermountain) has the bracket style grabs as one-piece castings in their kits (more modern stuff than Wayne usually builds, so he may not be aware of them.) Not sure if they’re available separately. They are standard styrene. Glue right in, using a pair of pegs on the back. You could snip them off and glue on, but wouldn’t be as strong.
Looked at the intermountain site http://intermountain-railway.com/ho/hodetail.htm
They have a couple that that says body or side detail, but does not say what is inculded in it.
These ones I think: P40400-59 for PS-1 boxcars. Sounds like the right group of parts on a sprue, and a deal at 4 sets for $5. IIRC, that should give you maybe 8 of those in each set (so maybe 32?), been awhile since I built one. And you’d have a bunch of other usuable parts.
The P40700-59 set for 1937 AAR boxcars might have them, too, so may be worth getting some of that. If you like using plastic grabs, these will give you plenty of material.
You can also just purchase Bracket Grab Irons from Tichy!
https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/c/grabirons/p/3075/Default.aspx
Look to Tichy for lots of parts, I get almost all my 18" drop grabs and straight grabs from them along with a lot of other stuff, a look around their website is very informative.
Rick Jesionowski
I’ve used the Tichy grabs and they are easy to work with. I needed some warehouse windows that were out of stock everywhere. Buying directly form Tichy, I picked several other parts I would need, and shipping was only $3.50 Very reasonable.
Mike, fourt, and Rick, thanks for posting that info and the links. I had checked the Tichy site, but missed those bracket-style grabs, and was unaware of the updated Red Caboose/Intermountain ones.
I’m not sure that I’ll bother to update all of my Pennsy boxcars with those more accurate versions of bracket-style grabs, although if I do build another such car, will likely be embarrassed into upgrading the 11 older ones, too. And I’m not even modelling the Pennsy! [:P]
Wayne
Looked at the grab irons those might work. They even had the stake pockets that i needed for my 2 flat cars, ended up making my own. Mine are a bit oversized.
https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/c/miscellaneous/p/3006/Default.aspx
fourt,
Get a good pin vise and a pack of #72 drills and practice on a scrap box car. Drilling holes in plastic is not that difficult. With a little practice, you should be drilling like a pro in no time.
Might want to look into a drilling jig, too!
https://www.labellemodels.com/manuals/Grab%20Irons.pdf
http://sld-nmra.ca/freight_car/grab.htm
BLMA makes one but I don’t know if it will work for house cars. It says it is for EMD or GE locomotives?
Good Luck, Ed
Have tryed different brands of drills and vises, all with the same effect. A bunch of broken drill bits. Have even just tryed having the drill bit out enough to just cut through the plastic and still i break them. Have even tryed a expesvive set used for drilling teeth, broke even singile on of them. I even break them on first spin of the bit.
The drilling jig is a good idea however if i cant even drill through plastic how am i going to drill through brass?
snip
A styrene jig would work, too. I have seen a technique where you center punch the brass and sand the protrusion on the backside which eventually forms a small hole, then you ream this out to the finished size.
Well, the brass just guides the drill so every hole is pefrectly aligned and all your grab irons are straight and, especially with plastic ones, the end-to-end distance is the same, if too far they’ll break, too close and the rungs will bow. Metal ones have a bit more give.
You don’t actually drill into the brass the jig (OK, once if you are making your own) it shows you where you have to drill.
Maybe THIS would be a better plan for you?
https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/c/ladders/Default.aspx
It sounds like you are expecting too much out of that tiny drill. VERY light pressure, spin the pin vice between index and thumb, let the drill do the cutting and clean out the chips or stringy plastic trailings often. Good light, an even better Opti-Visor, patience and a light touch.
Model Railroading Is Fun!
Ed
Was drilling some holes in a locomotive tonight for some lift rings broke 3 drills in drilling 8 holes. One of them broke as soon as i pressed down on it to spin it. I really hate wasting money on them. One of them broke with part of it still in the hole, I was luckey i was able to grab hold of it with a small tool and pull it out.
I feel your pain.[:(]
Have you tried with the minimum length for the depth of hole you require protruding from the chuck?
Cheers, the Bear.
Yes, that the “fun and games” of tiny drills, but they are often a necessary “evil” for making holes for details. You have to learn to have a very light pressure and I suggest also mounting them so only just enough is protruding from the pin vise - they are a little less likely to break that way.
One thing I never got cause they seemed pricey was a set of reamers, which are tiny round file like tools that let you enlarge a hole or clean one out that is molded as part of a shell. Often when you are assembling a kit and installing details, the hole needs cleaning out or enlarging before the part will fit well.
Fourt,
From your description of your drilling attempts, I think you are either pushing too hard or allowing the drill to move out of square while you twist the pin vice. Use very light pressure when you drill. Let the bit cut. You are drilling a hole, not “punching” it! Relax. Don’t give up. It’s not brain surgery.
I just have enough of the drill sticking out to drill through the plastic. One of them i broke i used hardly any pressure on it while i turned it. This set i have right now also seams not to want to cut into the plastic unless you press down on it. About 15 years ago i bought a expsenive set used to drill teeth, I broke most of them as soon as i used them. I have 3 differnt holders for the bits and one for bigger drill bits. Not sure what brand of drill bits i have right now, will have to look when i get back home.
Went through breaking bit after bit . Myself I prefer the metal grab irons. So this was my solution. I purchased piano wire the size I don’t rememder,check the DIA of the grab irons and get the piano wire as close to the same size as possible. Cut the wire long enough to extend1/2 to3/4 mm from the end or the pin vise. Cut a 45° or so angle on the end with a small pair of wire cutters,this will leave 3 sharp edges that cuts through plastic fairly easy. Get a small block of model ship rigging wax. Stick the end of the wire into the wax before you start to drill. Put light pressure on the vise when you start,keep the bit as straight as possible,you will bend them a lot in the beginning but don’t get frustrated once you get the pressure part down the wire usually will drill holes for several cars . Make sure the wire is pushed all the way into the vise,if you bend it ,pull it down snip the end tighten vise back up and continue. This cost pennies to do and it works great. Good luck. Let me know if this works.
Happy Rails
Greg