Plastic that's "as good as brass"

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

I am a brass owner with several recently produced Overland models of modern diesel locomotives. I have read much about how newer plastic locomotives are “almost as good as brass” with regards to detailing, paint and accuracy, but I certainly don’t own any myself that fall into that category. My question is, which of the newer super-detailed plastic locomotive models do you consider to be in the category of “(almost) as good as recent brass? (say Overland quality from the last 5-10 years).” I would like to also try to rank them, best first. Although I am personally only interested in modern diesel, I see no reason to limit this list to that. Perhaps we could make up one list for diesel and one for steam.

Please, I don’t want this thread to be another “brass vs plastic” debate. What I want to know is, what specifically are the best models plastic has to offer that could compete in terms of detail? I envision owning both brass and plastic and enjoying them both for what they are.

I haven’t seen all of these myself, but I thought I would guess at a few to add to the list to start.

1). BLI AC6000CW

2). Athearn Genesis SD70ace

3). MTH SD70ace (tied with Athearn for second place)

4). Intermountain ES44AC and ES44DC

5). Others??

2

I recently purchased a couple of Bowser Executive line F units. These are the most detailed locomotives that I have ever had, and I believe that they fall into the list you are looking for.

3

I purchased two of the MTH SD70Ace diesels and two of the Athearn Genesis SD70Ace for comparison and there is no tie for my money for second place. The MTH falls short of the Genesis details in many ways. The MTH do run better but not even close on details. Just my thought.

CZ

4

While not modern, Proto 2000 E’s have a lot of small detail parts. And there trucks are sprung so you can watch the bearings going up and down when they roll over turnouts and such. Well till they fall off and you cannot find them that is.

Here is a couple PIC of a Blue Line GE AC 6000

Cuda Ken

5

Well, I don’t have much in the way of diesels–most of my Rio Grande and Espee roster is steam (and mostly brass), but I have purchased two Genesis F-3 A/B sets in both Rio Grande black and yellow and Grande Gold (4-stripe) and they’re beautifully detailed IMO, and run very well.

I also have an early BLI E-6 A/B/B “City of San Francisco” lash-up, and the detail on those locomotives is VERY nice–certainly of brass quality. They’re my only ‘sound’ diesels, and very convincingly done, at least IMO.

As far as ‘brass quality’ steam, Athearn’s Espee MT-4 4-8-2 is just as beautifully detailed as several older brass versions I have. A beautiful locomotive!

Tom

6

Based solely on photos, I would put up a new run of the Rapido FP9’s or whatever they are for the Canadian set just issued. The guys who have them are amazed, although there have been some casualties during shipping.

Crandell

7

For Diesel’s I certainly agree.

I am one of the recent recipients of the HO Rapido Canadian and I would agree that the Rapido CPR FP9’s are the most accurately detailed models available. No other EMD F unit has the amount of accurate detail that Rapido has added to their model.

Note that Rapido is also offering the FP9 in the CNR paint schemes as well as VIA and also an undecorated version

http://www.rapidotrains.com/fp9_1.html

The sound decoders used are the Tsunami’s, I am impressed with these engines, the CPR version is super detailed, perhaps just a bit too much, you have to be very careful when handling these engines. Rapido certainly tried their best, the package is a box within a box within a box with bubble wrap between the outer box and the center box.

Rapido will be adjustingt he packaging to try to ensure less breakage for the next release. As I have one other set I certainly hope the final packaging is more robust and I receive the next set without any breakage.

For Steamers, I would suggest the True Line version of the CN U2g 4-8-4. This being their first entry into the HO steam market is a great running, super detailed steamer.

http://www.truelinetrains.ca/locomotives/ho---u-2-g

I only hope that True Line will build more steamers in the future. I picked up a few of these when they were available at fire sale prices. This is a quality locomotive, it is just too bad that it was priced so high when it first came out. I noticed that when it came out that there were few reviews to alert people a

8

First off, this is apple to oranges - for a number of reasons.

Personally, i have no experiance with “recent brass” steam or diesel, except to see it in photos.

That said, I consider a great many of the plastic/die cast locos made in the last decade or two to be every bit as nice as a great deal of the brass made in that same period.

I have a large fleet of Bachmann Spectrum Steam, Proto2000 steam and diesel, Athearn Genesis (F units), and Intermountain (F & FP units).

All of these have detail levels that are on a par with, if not better than, a lot of brass produced in th same period.

As a result, brass importers have had to step up their game in terms of detail and features - which has resulted in some amazing models at some more amazing prices.

I would like to ask the OP a few questions if I may about what motovated this question in the first place:

Are you buying thess locos to run on a layout with specific theme or prototype? OR are you just a “collector” of the fine art of model making who may or may not run them on some sort of display layout?

Why does this matter? Simple. If one were to restrict their motive power purchases to only brass, one might have an exceptionaly hard time building even a modest roster for even the simplest prototype layout theme.

Much like people who arbitrarily exclude specifc brands without reseaching the quality or detail of a specific product that might fill an important role in their modeling theme.

I select locos based on three primary factors - no one of the three factors rules the day, but those factora are - price, running quality, detail level.

The other given is that it fits my era and layout theme.

I don’t include or exclude locos based on material of construction, country of manufacture, or brand.

I do exclude locos based on very high price or unwanted features like DCC with sound.

I don’t see any $1200 locos in my future - and really not even too man

9

Sheldon,

I rather expected that you would find it impossible to simply allow me to ask a basic question without you jumping all over it with your mindless drivel. Please go away and leave me alone. You’ve made an ass of yourself once again. Please don’t post here.

When you start off by saying “I dont know anything about recent brass” then you’ve already admitted to everyone here you are not qualified to answer my question, so there is no reason for you to respond.

Your comments make it obvious you aren’t intellectually capable of understanding the question. Now go away and leave the adults alone. Perhaps your goal is just to have this thread locked like you always seem to do whenever I post a question. Grow up man. You are too old to act this childish.

10

It certainly appears that he did not understand your posting, which I thought was quite clear.

It is obvious that a few manufacturers are making extremely detailed plastic locomotives that would rival those produced by brass manufacturers.

One segment of the model railroad market where there has been noticeable increase in detail is that of passenger coaches. The newer coaches by Walthers, Rapido and the new Con-Cor coaches have excellent detail that rivals a number of brass coaches I have seen and are about 1/3 of the price.

In the steamer selection the new Intermountain cab forwards certainly are well detailed and are again only about 1/3 of the price of brass.

The new brass locomotives are just too costly for my budget. I agree the quality and detail of some of these new steamers is excellent, the prices are just too dear.

11

It certainly appears that he did not understand your posting, which I thought was quite clear.

It is obvious that a few manufacturers are making extremely detailed plastic locomotives that would rival those produced by brass manufacturers.

One segment of the model railroad market where there has been noticeable increase in detail is that of passenger coaches. The newer coaches by Walthers, Rapido and the new Con-Cor coaches have excellent detail that rivals a number of brass coaches I have seen and are about 1/3 of the price.

In the steamer selection the new Intermountain cab forwards certainly are well detailed and are again only about 1/3 of the price of brass.

The new brass locomotives are just too costly for my budget. I agree the quality and detail of some of these new steamers is excellent, the prices are just too dear.

12

Keith, as Don suggests, you clearly missed the point of my post. It was NOT to put down you abilty to buy expensive brass locos, I have no problem with that.

It was to ask a question.

IF your goals are REALLY what you discribe in another current thread, then being results driven you would not restrict yourself only to brass locos simply on the basis of their limited selection and availablity - price aside.

You would simply say - “my layout theme requires (fill in the needed loco and roadname)” and you would then evaluate the available models for their detail and running quality - period.

As to your question, why ask it in terms of brass vs other construction methods if there is no “brass preference” on your part?

And if there is a preference for brass what is it bassed on?

After 40 plus years in this hobby, I have seen a lot of brass models. Just like their plastic and die cast counterparts, some are very good - some are junk.

Why don’t I have much brass? - I model the transition era, vintage brass steam is known to be “finicky”, I like my trains to actually run.

I operate weekly on a list of layouts in a round robin group. Brass locos represent a greater percentage of the operational problems on those layouts than do “plastic” locos - which in the case of steam are really “die cast” locos with some plastic details.

I am of some “means” myself, but have different values as to what I will and will not spend money on. That’s fine, I have no problem with your ablity or willingness to spend large sums on a single loco.

But the base assumption of your question “assumes” that brass is better - that is a general assumption that has NEVER been true on a blanket basis in this hobby.

Read a few of posts in the ongoing bashing of Bachmann - I firmly believe each model deserves individual evaluation - regardless of brand, construction method, or price.

Regarding price, some are just a better value than others. Given a cho

13

“Model Railroading is Fun!”

… not only for the rich and skilled, but also for the less affluent and adept.

´Nuff said! [;)]

14

Actually Sheldon, you really did miss my point completely and continue to do so in the extreme.

First off, I specifically asked that we not turn this thread into a brass vs plastic debate and make value judgements, yet that is exactly what you continue to do. I just want to know what are some highly detailed plastic models. Period. I dont need or want all the commentary you feel compelled to provide. I asked up front for everyone to withhold it. Everyone else was able to restrain themselves but not hou of course because you cant exercise that much self control.

Secondly, you mistakenly assume that I am not interested in plastic and am a brass only snob. The point of my thread was to find out what exceptional quality plastic models are out there that I might want to consider in my plans to purchase more plastic. You have jumped to a lot of conclusions about my motivations as if somehow that matters, and you got it exactly wrong. I didnt come here to defend brass or to claim it is somehow “better”, but to learn more about plastic so I can benefit from some of its advantages (cost not one I happen to care about that much). Greater product selection and running performance are things that do interest me.

Contrary to your assertion otherwise, I think it is generally regarded that brass is more detailed than plastic, assuming you are comparing models (not prototypes) made in similar eras. Therefore I think my implicit assumption that brass is generally better in this singular regard is accurate. I never claimed that brass was “better” overall. You are the one putting that statement out there as if I wrote it. Nothing in my postings here has implied that I hold such an opinion in any way implicitly or explicitl

15

Ulrich

Is there a point here you would like to make with respect to my original posting? I agree completely with what you said but I don’t appreciate the relevance.

Keith

16

Keith,

the point is obvious. We are in this hobby for the fun it offers. For some it is expensive brass or highly detailed locos and cars, some are willing to settle with less detail and/or gimmicks - for whatever reason. Unlike many other pastimes, our hobby caters for all walks of life, and for a great variety of interests. No one has to explain or defend his choice, but unfortunately, some do.

Back to your point:

“Plastic” has come along way in recent years, in terms of detail and quality. That used to be very much different, if you go back, say, 20 to 30 years.

I own only one brass model. It is a HOn3 D&RGW T-12 from Westside, bought in the mid 1970´s. Compared to those Blackstone models, it is poor - in terms of detail, as well as performance. “Plastic” can be not only as good, but also better than brass.

17

Keith,

While I don’t always agree with Sheldon and he can be opinionated, I certainly have a great deal of respect for that opinion. In that regard, I don’t think he is attacking you, but rather trying to provide information to you, and also others who may read this thread. Everyone can then take that information and interpret how it relates to their own needs.

On to the topic of this thread. You asked which plastic diesels are as good as brass in terms of detail. Which implies a brass based bias in the question. But it seems like what you are really asking is which locomotives you should buy? None of us can really tell you that because there are too many variables. What does your prototype use? If you’re not following a prototype, what does your railroad require for it’s “family” image? Do you need them pre-painted for your railroad or will you paint them?

Then are you more interested in detail or operating quality? The answer may differ or it may not, depending on what is on the market.

Answering these and the related questions will help eliminate those options that don’t fit at all. Then answering the question becomes much easier.

18

Keith,I haven’t owned a brass engine in years but,know and understand owning a brass engine isn’t necessary when comparing brass and plastic locomotive details.Photos will work wonders with this task.

To answer you question yes, several of today’s top end locomotives rival their brass counter parts as far as detail and operation.

As far as getting more bang for the buck or the “wow!” factor only the modeler can decide.

19

Further to my previous comment, I am very pleased with both my Proto 2000 Heritage Series 0-6-0 USRA switcher and my Rivarossi 2-6-6-6 H-8 Allegheny from the C&O. The switcher required no other work, while the H-8 came with a bag of goodies the more…um…discerning modellers would appreciate having to add to improve the detailing even further. Also, the brakes had to be added to the drivers if I recall. But, while they may not quite reach the level of the highest quality and most expensive brass offerings of the past 10 years, I think they come darned close. If you were inclined to improve them to pure brass quality, there are always after-market castings one can add.

Let’s be honest and say that, for the heavy majority of us, money is the issue. We can save up and finally receive that anticipated brass X-V-X steamer, and that would be it for the foreseeable future. If we are wealthy, as a comparative statement, some of us can buy three such items a month…no biggie. Most of us can afford a single plastic engine, maybe two, per year, plus some other scenic materials and a kit or two…and that’s it.

The hobby allows the huge majority of interested people to sit on the looong bench somehow and someplace. Our imaginations should really do a good job of filling in the missing stuff, but others will want to be able to turn an engine upside down and see the wedges or real brass bearing blocks.

And they’ll have to pay…someone…for that level of perfection. Thems that can do, thems that can’t will have to make do.

I hope I have answered in a useful way with my two examples above that I feel come very close to how a brass steamer appears these days. In those two cases, they came new at a hefty price, but much less than half of what a brass with comparable detailing would have set me back.

Crandell

20

Well, I have no respect for the man’s opinion whatsoever, and yes he is attacking me, but the truth is, he is so clueless about how he relates to others he probably doesn’t even realize he is doing it. I have never seen him say anything that added value to any conversation, but maybe that is just because I am not seeking his approval for what I do, because that is the only thing he dispenses (or not).

Now back to your points. “a brass bias in my opinion”? Yes, as it relates to detail, not anything else as I made clear in the original post. So again, you are as guilty as he in having knee jerk reactions and putting words in my mouth. Reacting in such a way implies you are the one with a bias. Frankly I dont care if you have a bias for plastic over brass because that is not the subject of this thread. I begged in my original post to not turn this into a plastic vs brass debate and Sheldon and now you refuse to honor that simple request.

Secondly, I didnt ask what locomotive to buy. I didnt give out enough information for anyone to make a recommendation for me. No where did I say, “what should I buy?”. I am capable of figuring that out on my own given all the facts. The only facts I’m missing relate to level of detail of most of the more expensive plastic models because I dont have a way to examine them first hand before purchasing as they are not stocked at my LHS. Hence my question to this forum. I asked what plastic locomotives have brass quality level of detail. That is a very narrowly framed question but some people cant limit themselves to the restricted scope of it because it is more fun for them to have a flame war on brass vs plastic - something I refuse to be drawn in to.

Then you ask, are you more intereste