Here is a silly question:
I’m sure it’s fairly obvious but I’m wondering everyone else’s take on the topic;
Why is Brass products so much more expensive than die cast and plastic (or just plastic for that matter) and what makes them superior for that matter?
I’ve always used plastic products (locos, rolling stock, etc) and am satisfied with those yet every time I see brass products listed on ebay or a classified listing somewhere it’s like 50 cent a gallon gas, everyone wants it.
Brass is coming down, or at least a ton of it is. Plastic and diecast are catching up in the one area where the brass has historically had a mile lead, and that is in the details and prototypical correctness. They were hand built, and out of brass, so those combinations and the level of finishing meant that they were much more expensive. Well, that and the fact that they made so few of any one model on a given run of them.
There are many locos that will never be done in plastic. Not enough demand to warrant the cost of tooling. In those cases if you want a precise model, brass is the only option besides scratchbuilding or kitbashing (presuming the loco has been done in brass). I think modern plastic is great, but I find myself with more and more brass because I end up wanting obscure prototypes…
Guy
Brass is more expensive because each model requires considerably more labor than a single plastic locomotive, and because they are not produced in the quantities that plastic locomotives are.
With a plastic locomotive, thousands of copies can be made. The initial setup costs can be divided amongst these thousands of copies. With brass, fewer copies exist so tooling and setup cost must be divided among a smaller number of locomotives. That’s why they cost more.
Die-cast metal is pretty rare these days but the principle is the same: with die-cast, you can just stamp out a ton of copies and reduce initial costs. But you can’t mechanically stamp out brass locomotives: the individual parts, perhaps, but they’ll always require more labor and detail to build.
There are some advantages to brass: many less-common equipment has never been produced in plastic, but many have been produced in brass over the years. For some specialty collectors, there really is no alternative to brass other than scratchbuilding. Want a Niles interurban passenger trailer? Hunt on eBay for a Suydam in brass, or start scratchbuilding!
I’ve never understood the allure of brass. On the other hand, I’ve never understood the allure of a lot of things that have become collectibles. Once a significant number of people decide they want something that has a very limited supply, the price gets driven up significantly.
When I entered the hobby three decades ago, brass locos cost about ten times that of a similar plastic loco. Since my interest was in running trains rather than collecting them, there was no way to justify that kind of cost. The added detail was nice but certainly not worth the price tag. Most brass I saw for sale at my LHS was unpainted which I understand is the way the collectors like it. That was one more reason to stay away from brass.
I do have a small brass collection. It was part of an estate sale which I bought as a lot. I have a 2-6-6-2 which I think is a Sierra logging loco. It is unpainted, not in its original box, and slightly tarnished, which reduces it’s collectible value I’m sure. I also have 3 shorty Tenshado Pennsy passenger cars in their original boxes. They are factory painted. I doubt they are an accurate prototype since I’ve never seen shorty Pennsy passenger equipment. I have no plans to run these and no idea what they might be worth. Someday, I might get around to investigating what I might get for these pieces.
When I entered model railroading as a hobby, which was late 1950’s, plastic was pretty much junk but the best we could get then. Brass was a dream, but I was able to afford a few pieces. Tenshodo and some other companies that I have managed to forget made some great diesels, but usually the drive train was junk. However, I did buy some, especially in the 80’s as Overland began to be a player, but the diesels I bought were models not available in plastic.
I still run a few Overland today, and they are improved as far as drivetrains, but still not up to quality of Kato, or Atlas drive train quality in my opinion. Again, the reason for me was to get models I couldn’t get in plastic or wouldn’t want to buy in plastic.
Bob
I still contend that details reproduce better in brass vrs. plastic, that being said, today’s plastic is quickly catching up. What a SP Mikado or deck in S? Brass only, unless you are adept at converting semi-scale AF models to scale. I still retain several brass models (Tenshodo, PFM, Westside, Balboa all with drivetrains upgraded courtesy of NWSL) from my HO days, may sell the collection to fund the purchase of one of those above mentioned Mikes.
Dave
As others have alluded, plastic has economies of scale going for it. More sold and more made equates to lower prices. Also, although petroleum prices are up, brass prices are way way up. When I was pricing K&S brass recently, prices were 3-4x what they were in 2004 or thereabouts.
As for appeal, brass does allow fine details that are difficult to achieve in plastic. I’m familiar with someone who does work in plastic in small quantities, using laser cutting and etching. The results are impressive, comparable to what people achieve with photoetched brass, but the cost is very close to photoetched brass too. If you were looking at two different things and each cost about $100 with comparable levels of detail, but one was made of plastic and the other was brass, which would you pick?
Very informative responses to the “brass” topic, I have wondered about the huge gap in brass and plastic, the above posts seem to explain it, when plastic arrived I laughed at what people payed for a “plastic” loco, now I’m seeing some pretty nifty stuff out there, I guess if the product is of high detail and quality and correct, does it really matter what it’s made of??? plastic, brass, silver??? Who knows what the next generation of locomotives will be made of??
Most of my locos are brass, mainly for one reason: I model a railroad whose prototype locomotives are only AVAILABLE in brass. Probably if they were available in plastic, I’d bite and have a ton of them, but since they aren’t, I search the brass market for used prototypes.
However, I RUN my brass, it just doesn’t sit on the shelf. Which means I do a lot of ‘tinkering’ to get the brass to run well. And brass is very forgiving to work with, and it CAN be made to run as well if not better than a lot of current plastic models.
Plus, brass has a certain HEFT to it–especially some of the older Japanese imports. And yes, if they aren’t as minutely detailed as newer brass, one can always cure that by detailed castings available from either Cal-Scale or PSC.
And brass has longevity–at least mine seems to. The oldest operating brass loco I have was made sometime in the late 1950’s and a great many of my brass locos date from the 'sixties and 'seventies. And they’re busy on my Yuba River Sub doing what they’re supposed to–pulling freights over my mountains.
Anyone starts building Rio Grande standard-gauge steam in plastic–I’ll be first at the counter. Until then, I’ll go brass and be a very Happy Camper.
Tom [:)]
twhite you took the words right out of my mouth,As you can see i model the Great Northern and the closest i was able to find in all these years since in plastic was years ago (1974-75 i think) was a AHM USRA Mikado in glacier park colors with dual compound air pumps on the smokebox,even it came with a long C&O vanderbilt tender… Still have it but it now pulls a brass vandy tender.
So to brass i went and run’em I do,no shelf queens for me…!
Thanks to all;
you have seemed to make me more clear on why the demand for brass is so high.
All my loco’s are brass.
I model NYC specifically B&A…
What others have said regarding economy of scale is right on the money. Also even as highly detailed as some of the better plastic can be they still make compromises in realism in order to accomodate their customer base.
Things like modifiying the locomotive frames so that large wheelbase locomotives can negotiate unrealistically tight turn radius. Personally I feel that a Niagara on 24" radii looks ridiculous. Way to much smokebox and firebox overhang which spoils the illusion. 36" is visually the ballpark for a model that size IMO.
With that being said brass provides an option that mass manufacturers have not addressed and most likely never will. Railroad class specific versions of locomotives. If you know NYC you’ll realize their is a “Look” to their steam. Low cabs and high turrets. The family resemblance is uncanny. USRA looks out of place. That’s why I find offerings like the Marklin/Trix H-6 ridiculous. That is the most un-NYC locomotive I can think of. NYC had big bucks and that was reflected in their motive power. Thier engineering department had very close long term ties for decades with ALCO and LIMA.
I have a J1E, J2B, J1B, and J3A Hudson. Other than BLI no other “big” manufacturer has made a reasonably hi-fidelity representation of the Hudson. I think BLI has made the J1E and J1D. Sit them next to my Overland Hudsons and the difference is readily apparent. They pale in comparison. Brass is sturdier in the long run as well. If I bend or break a part I can solder it back on. If I chip the paint the touch up is minor. If I feel like stripping the paint and re-finishing the model it’s not that big if a deal. Plastic is highly volatile in comparison. Ever bake a plastic locomotive in an oven?
These are all things I discovered after the fact though. The #1 reason I got into brass was that what I want for my pike is simply not available in p
Brass is more expensive and delicate, but sice plastic is getting some detailed its sometimes hard to tell the difference between the two. But most brass is from the 1970’s with the steam engines, but there are far less makers of brass engines now.
On the other hand since my grandfather has alot of brass in ho scale, and im the only one in the family who models trains in ho with my father they will be passed down to me and my dad. Also my dad, grandfather, and me are going to start the process of builind a large HO scale layout in western pennyslvania near altoona, my layout on the other hand is a 4x8 due to space, but old grand dad has a empty basement and thats his plans 
Heft is especially important in small locomotives. My little single-truck Birneys don’t have a lot of weight, and the fact that they have a brass body means that there’s a bit more weight than if the body was made of plastic. That helps keep it on the track. That, and the fact that nobody ever made a single-truck Birney Safety Car of plastic (not the cheap Tyco single-truck trolleys etc) means that if I want to model it I have to have brass…even if I have to repower it to get realistic speeds and good performance!
Maybe BLI found a niche here with their Hybrid models. Just yesterday I received the NH I-5 Hybrid and it is a wonderful model - of course I haven’t seen the Brass version but I think there can’t be that much of a difference in looks.
Based on that positive experience I have pre-ordered some BLI Mohawks and certainly hope for more great Steam models from BLI.
I was always (and still am) fascinated by the variety of models available in Brass and just recently saw pics of the MKT & Frisco “Texas Special” models by OMI. Simply breathtaking but unfortunately out of my price range.
"Once a significant number of people decide they want something that has a very limited supply, the price gets driven up significantly. "
Such as gasoline?
For me it’s brass as I model business trains and the equipment is RR specific and you just can make a generic business car or theater car or the other cars kept by the RRs.
Charlie
If I modeled the steam era and I could afford it, I’d buy brass. Most railways had steam locos built to their own specifications, and a fleet of USRA-type plastic locos just won’t cut it. And unfortunately, a good many of the plastic steam locos out there are the USRA type.
What I find extremely annoying about the USRA steam locos is that most (if not all) road engines have a tapered boiler. Domes, piping, handrails, etc. can be changed, but the shell is useless if one wants to model a loco with a straight boiler.
All of my locos are brass, so are my cabooses. Other rolling stock is wood. I realize that many plastic models look darn good, but it’s tough to do modifications to plastic that don’t show the “scars.” You know, where you trim off a cast on detail and then have to smooth it. With brass, I can swap out a detail and there is little refinish work required, except for paint.
As good as plastic models have become, I still think that well made brass is a cut above. I like to tinker and re-gear/re-motor, and add a few bits of soldered on clutter. Plastic doesn’t offer these opportunities. I like knowing that my models won’t melt, and that paint won’t attack their surfaces.
One down side to brass is that sometimes a short circuit happens when the shell is on, but it disappears when the shell is off. These can be a challenge to track down.
Regarding price, I buy my brass used. Usually that keeps the price near the plastic equivalent, add another $50 for a good motor and gearbox and I have an exceptional model for just a little more than most good plastic.
Finally, I don’t know of HO scale plastic models of Forneys, and 18-20T Shays. It seems that most of the plastic model manufacturers don’t bother to serve the small loco bunch.
Besides, they just look neat:
