Not to be more annoying than usual, but polls are usually intended to have some kind of statistical significance. Polls on this forum, [ or other MRR internet forums ], by nature, have no such characteristics.
Take the recent ‘NMRA membership’ poll, the ‘club membership’ poll, the ‘what’s the most popular scale’ poll…none of them has the slightest resemblance to proven statistical participation. [xx(]
What they are is a chance for those in a niche part of the hobby to pretend they are a larger and more significant part of the hobby than is true, and to “preach to the converted”.
( How many people who don’t belong to the NMRA will join because someone in a forum poll says that they should ? )
( How many MRR club members will quit because someone in a forum poll says how bad clubs are ? )
Totally inaccurate statistics might not matter much to those who have been in the hobby for a while, but might be misleading to a beginner.[B)]
Why are online poll results always so grossly inaccurate ?
Because:
a] most hobby participants don’t join online forums,
b] of those who do join, most do not post, they just read others’ posts,
c] of those who do post, most post very infrequently,
d] of those who do post frequently, most have pretty strong opinions,
e] the strongest opinions invariably reflect a minority position…not just in our hobby, in all aspects of life.[:I]
So what you really get is not a “poll”, but a polarized spleen-venting exercise amongst a highly opinionated tiny minority of special-interest hobbyists.[:o)]
regards
Mike
Opinionated Old Curmudgeon
Most unfortunately, Bergie, Mike is absolutely correct on this particular matter and each of his listed points. I’ve been watching the various poll figures presented here of late and have to say that in almost every case the results are absolutely ludicrous. The best recent examples of this being that (absolutely no offense meant) Z scale, truly a niche scale, garners a major fraction of hobbyists, and that nearly half of all hobbyists are members of the NMRA, compared to an honest figure close to 7%-9%.
I have to agree with Mike that such figures can drastically mislead newcomers as to what goes on in our hobby and can not serve any useful purpose. Commentary on most any subject is often useful, productive and fun. Creating a misleading and totally unscientific poll regarding the same point, and its potential influence, is not.
I find them interesting. However i don’t make personal decisions based on polls taken in here, for instance I’m not gonna model in Z just becuase it won out in a poll. Just like I don’t vote for a person that is ahead in national voting polls.
I’d have to agree. I like voting in them and seeing the results, but don’t take them too seriously. On any forum, workplace, volunteer organization (insert any scenario), you will always have the ones that are active, the inactive and the afraid to be active. Nothing in these polls will change my mind - it might make me raise an eyebrow now and then. Aw, what the heck, keep the polls - it’s good fodder for conversation over a cold brew!
A “danger” is that the results are being quoted in other news groups as a Model Railroader poll. And being used to “prove” unsound things because “A Model Railroader Poll” said so. Since this site is the arm of the publisher and since the polls are posted by the agent of the publisher, there isn’t any clean denial.
The Z poll aspect was rigged somehow, I’m not sure how, but rigged it was. I enjoy polls in forums even if they are completely accurate as to the general population responses. Anything on an electronic medium such as the internet is going to skew responses to a younger audience since youth are more into the internet than some of the older guys and gals. I know some of the NMRA types tried to switch to electronic webs for their members but there was a tremendous resistance to it, since so many didn’t have computers yet! or weren’t using the internet - even though they were signed up on one!
But you just need to look to the Atlas forum to see that responses are not reflective of the population. N scale responses out number HO responses; when you consider the ratio of N scaler’s to HO’rs this is surprising, but not really. There are more younger people in N scale than in HO, and the younger people are more active on the internet so N scale is strong in the electronic media.
Often I do dual posts in the Atlas N and HO forum. It is more common for the N scale thread to garner more posts than the HO thread. This has been true for the past couple of years.
But the polls can give me a sense of what people are doing from questions like - how many have staging on their layout - to how many free lance vs prototypical, etc. So I like the polls as long as they aren’t dominating the forums.
I’m not sure what your question is, but I suspect you are talking about those modelling over thirty years. When I talk about something being skewed, it doesn’t mean that one part of the population isn’t there, it means the average (mean) has more of one type of group rather than another.
Let me ask you this for your survival question on the Island - who is more likely to own a computer, using the internet:
a) the 20 to 30 year olds
b) the 60 to 70 year olds
The correct answer is “a” but that doesn’t mean no 60 to 70 year olds don’t own computers and use the internet - many of them do, but as a grouping one is more dominant than the other.
What the "how long have you been… " poll does do is raise the question of how many new people are coming into the hobby.
Fair enough folks. I see there are several here who realize that it’s not constructive to intentionally try to mislead beginners in the hobby.
That would be those very beginners who are likely to be online more than us geriatrics.
As to harmless, one might refer to any internet forum on “best locomotives”.
I have seen more Athearn-bashing than enough the last couple of years, particularly on another well-known forum. The bashing has often been cruel and vindictive. [:(]
However, both reputation , common sense, ( and statistically proven popular opinion ) shows that Athearn still happens to be a GREAT entry-level, or better, locomotive line for beginners. Why try to turn beginners off for all the wrong reasons ?[:(!]
For those who like the polls, fine, enjoy the fiction…but I invoke what I commonly refer to as the “Alan Ladd” principle. A person standing on a box to look you in the eye, may be many, many things…and all of them may be admirable things…but no matter what that person may be, “tall” is not one of them.[:o)]
regards
Mike
Old enough to remember Alan Ladd[:D]
Maybe the poll should have a disclaimer to avoid misleading people. I like the polls, especially when they generate interesting responses, but I have to admit that I got a real laugh out ot the best scale poll with Z getting most of the votes. As with all statistics you have to be careful when you don’t know how they were generated. A good book on the subject is “How to Lie with Statistic” if you can find it. Part of what makes this hobby so fascinating is that there a lot of choices to be made and ways of doing things. Reading the passionately pro and anti opinions on a subject can help you make your own decisions, but in the end it is your decision. And if it doesn’t work for you, do it another way. I have changed scales twice, layout concepts numerous times, building methods too often to count, etc. and I still enjoying seeing ideas and discussions from others.
Enjoy
Paul
These polls are designed to offer an OPINION and FOSTER a conversation about the topic. they have NO basis for fact as not everyone who reads the question will respond plus these forums are a very limited slice of the hobbiest out there so of course the results are bogus.
What they really do well is to get people to talk about things, like them or not these polls often gather the most replys of any forum topics. I will reply and then give my opinion since my views are often not a part of the poll selections.
So guys, Lighten Up! and remember just because someone puts out a poll doesnt mean you have to reply to it…skip it and go to other topics if they bug you that much.
I dont want anyone trying to poop on Freedon af Speech (or opinion) here.
I don’t take these polls seriously at all. The amazing thing is that this forum boasts 124,297. registered members. I can probably count on my fingers and toes and maybe someone else’s fingers and toes the people(OK and maybe another set of fingers and toes) who actively participate.
I have only been active in his hobby for a little over a year. Prior to meeting my boyfriend, I’m going to admit to you hear in writing, that I probably wasn’t even aware that model railroading existed as a hobby prior to two years ago. So with limited experience and obviously being a women, I don’t for a moment believe that 26% model z scale. The z scale people just did a better job of voting. Numbers can be skewed by the people who vote and BY THOSE WHO DON’T. Even if half of the 124,297 participated or 62,149 are actively acttually lurking around on this forum, only 1738 or 2% actually took the time to vote.
I don’t read much into these polls because I tend to very much be an independent thinker and don’t much follow the crowd. Some of us have had great experiences in clubs and some haven’t. Even though my first experience wasn’t great, that’s not to say that I might not choose to join another in the future.
I don’t think newcomers will be frightened off model railroading by this poll or that. On the polls and threads posted, people give both points of view. But it is for us to decide which is best for us. It’s a very hard thing to post on a forum because you are exposing yourself to verbal tangles with others.This can be very intimidating. I know it was for me. Let’s face it, when someone posts on a forum, we can’t hear the tone of voice, intonation or see the body language or facial features.
But, as I said in another thread somewhere else, what makes American great (and Canada, too) is that we can agree to disa
I think polls on sites are meant to be indicative of the opinion of the people who visit that site AND participate. Their not supposed to represent the opinions of everyone in the hobby which the site represents. (I think I repeated what everyone else said.)
Anyways, an issue was presented. What are the options and/or solutions? Do polls need disclaimers added that they are neither scientific nor representative of the overall hobby? CNN has a disclaimer on their polls:
That would take care of people on other sites referencing polls on this site to support their discussions.
Personally, I’ve never really seen any value to these on-line polls, because they are always going to be skewed one way or another. For example, my posting of this message – I have been passing over this particular thread for at least two weeks and never bothered to read any of the comments. I usually don’t bother with any of the polls unless one happens to be on a subject that I have a particular interest in because I have experience in that area or am looking for information about a product that is being discussed. As others have very well pointed out, poll results are, and always will be, unreliable and must be looked at with a jaundiced eye, especially a controversial topic such as, “What scale is best?” There is no BEST scale! I would prefer 1:1, but have to model in HO because I can’t afford to own a real railroad, N and Z are too small for my eyes, and S, O, and larger scales are too expensive.
I held a poll in my house to see if MR polls were worthwhile. here’s what the public had to say.
My son was out, my wife told me to ‘sod off’ (1 abstention), 4 of the cats had no comment, while the other two agreed to vote with me for a small bribe. I like the comments in the polls which interest me, and how many other voters follow my train of thought (geddit) on a particular subject .
So there we have it, a resounding 3-0 for the MR polls.
Here’s the new disclaimer that will appear at the bottom of all of our polls from here on out:
Polls on Trains.com are not scientific and reflect only the opinions of the users who have chosen to participate. The results cannot be assumed to represent the opinions of Internet users in general, the readers of our magazines, nor the public as a whole. Bottom line, our polls are meant for fun and to stimulated conversation amongst our forum users.
They’re meant for fun and to stimulate conversation. Remember, it’s a poll, NOT a survey. Big difference. I don’t think anyone is intentionally trying to mislead beginners. Take them for what they’re worth. [:)]