There, I said it out loud.
Let me know what you think: http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/staff/archive/2015/03/06/positive-train-control-extension-probably-not.aspx
Have the Native American’s approved all the radio installations?
Have standards been set for inter-operatability between carriers?
Have standards been set for the manufacturers to be able to build the necessary equipment in volumes sufficient to comply?
A highly political and contentious subject to be sure. The politicians want the public to think they are doing something so they can get reelected. The railroads need relief from an onerous piece of legislation, and in the final analysis, the consumer will be forced to pay the bill.
As for passage of SB 650, anything originating at the Republican’s desks stands little chance of getting approved by the current administration.
BaltACD brings into focus other obstacles to be overcome. Will all parties agree to the necessary concessions? Not likely. The brick wall seems insurmountable at this point.
So … do we close the routes that are not complete by the deadline? Would almost serve them right IMHO
Norm,
I agree with your points on this. I have not looked into this, but if the deadline cannot be extended, and the railroads can’t meet it; then what?
Same thing they do in football: PUNT! Seriously though, I guess we’ll just have to cross that bridge when the water goes down. [:D]
In reference to putting together and implementing the PTC system in the time limit set out by congress I can say from a professional point of view that its impossilbe.
As a background to my discussion below let me briefly tell you of my professional qualifications. I was in the infromation technology industry for forty five years before I retired. I started out as computer operator trainee and worked my way up to various management positions in all phases of the industry (operations, programming, networking, security, procutement and communications).
With such a background I will point out that:
- The programs necessary jto perform the tasks to control the PTC system would hard, but not impossible to write. They would be very complex and creating a test structure that would include all possible senarios that the PTC system might encounter would be a nightmare. This would be bad enough except the each of the railroads are doing this on there own. The is no combined team to ccreate one system that all of the railroads would use. Thsi would include the programs on the mainframe computers of the railroads, the programs in the control systems of the engines. Thsi would require a major rewritiing of the engine computer systems. The engines that do not have computers would have to have them installed. These programs would have to be able to automatically control the locomotives engine and brake systems when the engineer or conductor does not rea cto to an unsafe condition.
I2. There is no coordiantion among the railroads to use one type of equipment to be able to communicate between railroads. There are multiple vendors offering their own version of the PTC hardware which creates the problem of ensuring that the system will work perfectly all of the time.
- Although the frequencey that will be used by the PTC system to communicate between the railroads, and the trains has been set.
It must be remembered that PTC was sold to congress by the NTSB has something that was available and ready to go right now. That the only reason the railroads hadn’t deployed it was because they didn’t want to spend money.
Jeff
Since when has the NTSB been known for desiging computer programs, telecommunications equipment, locomotive controls or having any number of other skilled professions that PTC requires?
Is PTC possible? Yes. Is it quick and easy? No.
I definitely think that grade crossing crashes and oil train derailments will be used to promote safety solutions, and PTC will be a sort of catch-all solution used in the promotion. The solution called for will be technological because railroads have deep pockets and their standardization means that once a new technology is accepted, it will have widespread application.
These two factors plus the fact of a mandate; taken altogether, is the mother of all bonanzas for the inventors, producers, and sellers of railroad safety technology. Besides that, the one best possible premise for promoting this type of expenditure is PUBLIC SAFETY. So this is a perfect storm of opportunity for selling new technology.
Putting all these factors together, we have a juggernaut of spending and runaway spending opportunity unlike anything we have ever seen before. I don’t know about the deadline, but in view of these larger spending mandate dynamics, I think the deadline is beside the point. When considering public safety alone, deadlines make sense.
But the technology sales opportunity in this case is so vast that no deadline will be allowed to end that opportunity. The deadline will simply be the “stick” used to move the process along until all of the opportunity is mined out. As long as the railroads have the money, PTC will be a work in progress, pas
And what funcitionality is that? Strange given FRA’s OK to Metrolink to turn on PTC on one of their lines.
I don’t know the details, but I am referring to a paper that was published by the FRA a few years ago. I have it here if I can find it. It gave a lot of details to show the overall complexity of the PTC implementation, including the fact that some of the technology had not been developed yet.
One line is not the whole system. The FRA has authorized a number of specific real world test environments. Test environments are far from full implementation.
Sorry to interject this thought, but it must be said. This is the same government that has paid to create a system for computerized, national healthcare system(ACA) Since 20101 its costs have tripled to +$35 B. See Link @ http://www.medicalrecords.com/physicians/electronic-medical-records-deadline Demanded(seperately) that the EMR system must be adopted by healthcare professionals in 2015. See link @ http://www.medicalrecords.com/physicians/electronic-medical-records-deadline
And my favorite; The Veteran’s healthcare System. It operates with an arcane data system. It (The VA’s IT system) is unable to ‘talk’ between Service Branches. This simply means that there are extra months added for a Veteran [excerbted, If the Vet has no ‘hard copy’ medical information, as proof of a service connected injury]
Similarly; The POSITIVE TRAIN CONTROL system mandated by Congress as The Rail Safety Improvement Act (RISA) of 2008. See link @
[quote user=“Steve Sweeney”]
There, I said it out loud.
Let me know what you think: http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/staff/archive/2015/03/06/positive-train-control-extension-probably-not.aspx
Railroad safety is important to everyone. Cutting the funding for AMTRAK’s Positive Train Control (PTC) system means that some aamerican citzens will surly die in railroad accidents that the PTC would have avoided.
Excerpt from NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/us/amtrak-says-it-was-just-months-away-from-installing-safety-system.html?_r=0
WASHINGTON — The Amtrak train that derailed in Philadelphia on Tuesday night was equipped with an automatic speed control system that officials say could have prevented the wreck, which killed eight passengers and injured hundreds. But the system, which was tantalizingly close to being operational, was delayed by budgetary shortfalls, technical hurdles and bureaucratic rules, officials said Thursday.
In 2008, Congress ordered the installation of what are known as positive train control systems, which can detect an out-of-control, speeding train and automatically slow it down. But because lawmakers failed to provide the railroads access to the wireless frequencies required to make the system work, Amtrak was forced to negotiate for airwaves owned by private companies that are often used in mobile broadband.
Officials said Amtrak had made installation of the congressionally mandated safety system a priority and was ahead of most other railroads around the country.
Railroad safety is important to everyone. The GOP cut the funding to complete Amtrak’s Positive Train Control (PTC) system and Americans died. This week the GOP cut the funding again which means means that some more Americans will surely die in railroad accidents that the PTC system would prevent. Another demonstration of the GOP’s lack of political will to govern this country
We know that the GOP has been willing let some of Americans die for lack of affordable healthcare. Now we know that the GOP is also willing to let Americans die for lack of a PTC system on our railroads. The GOP is wrong on this and they have are wrong on the ACA Medicaid expansion. They are usually wrong on everything. Why does anyone vote for or listen to these fools?
When electric suburban trains began to run over the San Francisco – Oakland Bay Bridge in January 1939, an “automatic cab signal” system was installed. The following paragraph is from the railroad enthusiast newsletter The Western Railroader booklet “IER ‘The Big Red Cars:’”
[On the bridge passenger trains] “Were under automatic cab signals. When operating in this train control territory the engineer received a permissive speed indication of 11, 17, 25, or 35 miles per hour, depending on the traffic ahead. When the train speed equaled the cab signal indication a white light appeared. If the train exceeded by 1-1/2 miles [MPH] or more the permitted speed, a speed warning whistle sounded; and if the engineer did not shut off the power and apply the brakes within 2-1/2 seconds the power would be shut off automatically and the brakes applied in emergency. On leaving train control territory an “NS” indication appeared on the indicator showing that the train is operating in non – a
It is independent of if and when a statory extension is granted. It is not physically possible to meet the deadline given the supply chain etc. So what do we do? shut down the offending properties?
So what happens on Jan 1 2016 ? Amtrak shut down except for the NEC only if Amtrak’s ACSES is approved for full use ? Freight RRs shut down all non PTC lines. As this poster can see very nasty political and court battles could happen on Jan 1st. Unintended consequences.