My wife just reported there was a “collision” between two trains at 500East, 600 North in Porter County. This is Northeast of Valparaiso. I heard the CN dispatcher discuss with crew and indicated there was a “big mess”.
The CN and CSX lines are a few miles apart, but reportedly there is a hazmat spill with burning cars and evacuations.
This is an area which I normally bike during 3 seasons. Could it be an ethanol train?
Ed
(Somehow duplicated in the editing process.)
Here’s a story from the Trib. Doesn’t appear to be ethanol, but the picture shows only two of the three trains involved. Looks like the shot was taken from an overpass with a chain-link fence, if that helps you narrow down the location, Ed.
Eolafan Jim has just posted a different link in a separate post.
Edit: Jim’s link has a link to a skycam report…it does look like the third train is all tanks, and could well be ethanol, but the tank cars in the shot (on a large curve) appear to be upright and on the rails.
The tanks are reportedly ethanol cars, but empty.
The streets you mentioned appear to intersect right by where the tracks go. I can see a curve near there. This isn’t too far from Suman, where CSX had another big wreck not all that long ago. One report says that the control point was somehow involved, in that one of the trains was crossing over.
Carl:
I know exactly where this is and would have travelled across the bridge tonight had this not occurred. I ride my bike over the bridge 5x a week in spring, summer and fall. This is a very scenic and interesting location in NW Indiana for viewing trains as the CSX works thru Suman Valley.
Suman is the crossover about 2 miles west where an intermodal derailed in June, 2010 and a workman was killed the following day. It took nearly 5 months to have the tracks back to normal.
This is going to be a major inconvenience for CSX. The line sees about 50-60 trains daily including all their hot Chicago-East Coast UPS trains. Dont know where everything will go, but CSX is tying trains down. I was working at home in my office and didnt have the scanner on until about 230 and missed the action. My wife actually alerted me to it as she was returning home from work.
It will be interesting to see what actually happened. Cant believe I wasnt listening in. The radio reception is very good for me and no doubt I would have heard about the accident as it occured.
Ed
My sister called me from North Carolina a little more than an hour ago, thinking she was telling me some news…it sure travels fast! It’s definitely one of the big stories on Channel 5 tonight.
I couldn’t recall when the other wreck had been…guess it was just one train (I was wondering whether more than one was involved there, too).
From what I heard on the news, a CSX freight train rear-ended another freight train, injuring the crew and derailing tanker cars, which smashed into a THIRD train on an adjacent track.
There’s a news article for ya to read up
Here’s an article from the Chicago Tribune
Tracking down this incident on several Chi land media sites there seems to be on interesting statement. The second train rear ended the first train when the first train had to make an emergeycy stop and the second train didn’t have room to stop, That statement opens a whole can of worms ot thoughts about speed and spacing and train sizes. Third train, going in the opposite direction just got in the way apparently.
Restricted speed is the only thing you can do when you have a train in the same block as you. This means what ever it takes to get stopped within half of the range of vision. I think restricted speed on CSX is up to 15 mph. This does not mean they should have been going that speed. In that situation, they should have had it down to under 7 or 8 mph, and that’s fast if it’s down hill, and I know that area does have a nice size hill. I’m just going by reports by the news, which is always wrong anyway.lol The end result will be crew error. Signal indication is how we stay alive out there…someone messed up.
Nothing will excuse the crew of the following train from operating at a speed at which they could stop short (within half the range of vision, according to the definition for restricted speed). And if they were following the other train that closely, they would have passed a red signal, which requires them to be proceeding at restricted speed. Weather was not a factor.
The reports I’ve had, from reputable sources, say that all three trains were westbound.
I’m afraid that the crew of the following train is going to be the one facing scrutiny here. Regardless of what caused the train ahead of it to stop, they were required to stop short. Weather wasn’t a factor (you couldn’t ask for better weather in January around here!).
Of course, only a thorough investigation (and NTSB is on the scene) will determine exactly what happened. But it is possible for experienced railroaders to come to a likely conclusion, given the facts.
Some of the locomotives involved were GE-built UP locomotives (those units, on the tank train, should not have been involved in the pileup). The manifest had two CSXT units and one IC unit (those units probably sustained the most damage).
The CSX Intermodal was Q161, the manifest was Q395, and the Ethanol empty was K363.
Quote CShaveRR: “if a UP train has an undesired emergency application, the engineer must immediately say, “Emergency! Emergency! Emergency!” over the radio”. Carl please correct me if I’m wrong but shouldn’t the engineer also add in the milepost and location to the original radio call continued by, or a second radio call, for the type of emergency (if known) and, if necessary, other tracks that are fouled / injuries?
It’s interesting to hear that two accidents have happened at virtually the same location about a year and half apart. Maybe it’s just a coicidence. Then again, maybe it’s a bad spot to have a control point / crosover(s). Is Suman a newer control point? Or, has it been there for a long time? Have there been any other incidents at this location before the most recent two? I’m sure that the NTSB will check the physical plant and a history of any other incidents in the area as part of their investigation into the crash.
The three “Emergency!” announcements are basically to clear the airwaves. A follow-up call would tell people who was in emergency, and where. Cause might not be known without an inspection.
Not sure what was at Suman prior to the double-tracking of the old B&O in the late 1990s; I suspect the current incarnation of the plant dates from then.
The NTSB will be looking into a lot of things in that area, for sure!
Edit: Looking at a different piece of aerial footage, I see that I might be in error about the order of the two trains: the stacker may have run into the ethanol empties. Regardless, the crew of the trailing train has to bear some responsibility here. I realize that I’m painting a pretty broad picture here, and things will have to be corroborated by details that an investigation will uncover, such as locomotive event recorders, cab video cameras (if they have 'em), and recordings of radio transmissions leading up to the incident.
Here is what I think happened, based on aerial footage and my understanding of operations of the area. I listen in almost daily on the scanner and as mentioned, this is my area for cycling during the spring - fall time. I watch a number of trains during my biking.
My guess:
WB ethanol train was stopped just short of the road crossing at CR 400 E. This is a common spot to halt WBs that will be going thru Xovers at Suman. WB ethanol train was on the track 2, the common EB track. Train Q395 is a Williard - Kirk Yard manifest with usually a long crew out of Williard. It was following on track 2.
Q161 was proceeding West on Track 1. Thus, it was running around both trains. My guess is that both K383 and Q395 were diverted to track 2 either at Webster or Wellsboro. My guess is after Q161 cleared Suman, then both trains would follow on T1. About this time of day there is a parade of EB intermodals that begin moving. So after the K383 and Q395 cleared, the track 2 would be cleared for EBs. Often Q395 takes considerable time getting clearance into Kirk.
So, in my theory, the Q395 ran into K383 right under the bridge causing the derailment with Q161 running at track speed (usually 60mph), causing the big pile up,.
My buddy has access to the site and he will be by to pick me up in 10 minutes. Should be interestign site.
Last night we went to Michigan City and back for son’s basketball game. The Hulcher equipment was staged on US 6 reading to move in when we went at 6pm. By 1030 they were working. We were about a mile away and it was quite an strange site with lights, smoke, haze and activity.
More later.
Ed
I’ll be waiting to hear about what actually happens/happened, Ed–I’ll accept that you have a better knowledge of how things are normally run there.
The first picture I linked, to, however, shows covered hoppers lying on their side (suggestive of being knocked over) and stack cars accordioned (suggestive of a hard stop or compression after an impact), which sounds like the opposite of what you’re saying. However, I feel like I should be ready to give up my Junior Investigator’s badge.
Just returned from the site. Unfortunately we are heading to Indy, so I dont have time to give much info now.
Probably took 150 photos. I have NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE this. The locomotives are completely burned out.
More later.
Ed
Approx. Lat./ Long. coords. of the “County Road 600” (E 600 North) bridge over CSX just east of the intersection of the N 500 E road per ACME Mapper 2.0: N 41.51969 W 86.96922
N 400 E road grade crossing mentioned by Ed/ MP 173 above: N 41.53133 W 86.98453
CP Suman crossovers/ interlocking, about 0.1 mile northwest of the Old Suman RD. grade crossing: N 41.54437 W 87.00163
I’ll bet that is an interesting area to ride a bike around ! (they’re a lot easier to get ‘off-road’ to park and look when space is limited, too !)
Looking forward to your ‘on-the-scene’ report, Ed !
Carl, good job with the analysis and the careful disclaimers, too !
Just returned from Indianapolis…long day.
Paul, thanks for the coordinates for the key locations. It is a very interesting railroading area and a great place for a cycling workout with considerable hills (for NW Indiana). As mentioned before several times, the bridge is one I cross during my ride and I have always enjoyed the CSX activity thru the area.
Several observations:
Hulcher sure seems to know what they are doing. There was considerable work done overnight and during the 90 minutes or so I was there a number of containers and cars were moved. It would be interesting to see an article in Trains about such cleanup crews. Cranemaster was also there. There was a rumor floating around about the hourly rate Hulcher bills, and it was huge. When we left I counted the number of semis with lowboy trailers…there were 20 just on one road, plus numerous pickup trucks.
There were a number of “officials” on site. Obviously the CSX were there in droves. Also NTSB, FRA, and other rail industry personnel. Just about every possible local enforcement agency had someone there. This was a big event and people used their credentials to access the site. Small community law enforcement officials were there from 30 miles away. Everyone seemed to have a camera and there were thousands of photos taken. The bridge had a chain link fence installed a couple of years ago and someone had conveniently cut a hole in the fence to facilitate easy photography. It was a popular spot. Meanwhile down below, Hulcher put on quite a show.
Listening in on conversations was fascinating. I talked with a number of people from law enforcement (third responder on the scene), to FRA, NTSB, CSX, private contractors, medical personel (yes on site to view the carnage), etc. Everyone seemed to realize this was a once in a lifetime event, at least in our area, and pe
CSX is running trains this morning. There is one running thru the derailment site as I write this with several EBs following.
That was a quick job to get a track in place.
Ed
There are two eastbounds now, the second is a coal train (missed the symbol). Dispatcher just told the trainmaster he would run 2 WBs Q500 and Q137, then run 3 Eastbounds.
Looks like the parade is beginning.
Ed