I’m looking to model one or two old time (circa 1870’s) 2-6-0’s for my planned HO gauge V & T layout.
I’ve got all the 4-4-0’s I need, but old time Moguls.are scarcer than hens teeth–even in brass. Besides the V & T had a lot more moguls than American standards in the beginning.
Anyway, I’m wondering if one of the small wheeled old time Roundhouse 2-6-0’s would be a worthy candidate. Of course the MDC models are a later period, and I think the wheels might still scale out a bit large, but I’ll live with it.
Anybody have experience with these models or their kitbashing potential?
It wouldn’t surprise me if the Roundhouse “Old Timer” 2-6-0 couldn’t be the basis for a V&T kitbash. There is a surviving 1873 V&T 2-6-0 “Empire” here in Sacramento at the California State Railroad Musuem, and it’s a pretty hefty and handsome chunk of locomotive–certainly a large example of 1870’s motive power. Seems to me that you could use the Roundhouse mechanism as a basis for it.
I don’t know if you live in the Northern California area, but a visit to the museum for photographs of the locomotive might be in order for you. If not, Google the California State Railroad Museum, and you should be able to get a connection to photographs of the locomotives displayed there.
Good luck.
PS: I like your moniker–the “Bowker” is a favorite locomotive of mine.
Thanks for the reply. I do want to visit both the California and the Nevada State Railroad museums and I have pictures and drawings of just about all of the surviving engines related to the V & T.
I live in Arkansas, but have tentatively planned a trip to both Carson city and Virginia city for next year—so maybe Sacramento wouldn’t make too long a side trip.
Actually, Atlas has made the cutest lillte model of the Empire mogul, and if it wasn’t N gauge my quest would be over.
FWIW. The original Roundhouse OT 2-6-0s (pre-Athearn) came with the 51" drivers (same as the 2-8-0) or 63" drivers (same as the 4-4-0). The new RTR production is 63" driver only. 63" drivers have crescent counterweights; 51" drivers have the square counterweights. Boiler is identical on all 3 OT models - 4-4-0, 2-6-0, and 2-8-0, and mounted higher than on most prototypes. The boiler is probably large for an 1870s locomotive.
But if the 51" drivers are acceptable, the mech could be a good starting point. A 2-8-0 mech will also work (and may be easier to find), since both 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 models shared the same frame.
Thanks for the info. The 51" driver would be acceptable since a couple of scale inches would be imperceptable and I could tell from looking at pictures of the models that the boilers looked like they were on stilts. I worried that this was needed for motor and gear clearance.
If I understand you correctly–the only way I’ll find the 51" inch dirvers on the 2-6-0 would be to pick up one of the old out of production Round house kits, but that the new Athern re-production of the 2-8-0 comes with the smaller wheels and could be possibly be converted by removing a set of drivers.
The old MDC kits pop up on EBay now and then, but I’m always afraid they will be missing parts.
When looking on eBay, I look for a statement that (at the very least) the seller believes all parts are present and the kit has not been started - or what the actual status is. I also look carefully at the pictures - if good pictures aren’t there I don’t bid - to see whether drivers are nickel plated or brass tires, whether motor is can or open frame, and if key parts (drivers, motor, gears, frame, cab, boiler, etc) are all there. I stay away from sellers who claim to know nothing. I haven’t been burned yet, but I’m not a big eBay buyer. When I sell, I do refund the money for the return of the item within a week (10 days for overseas) after receipt, including shipping both ways, if I misrepresented the item. I’ve only had one buyer question my representation of wheel wear on a used Bowser loco, but he declined to return the loco to me for the refund.
Richard Gagnon is the expert I know of for the MDC/Roundhouse Old Timer locomotives. IIRC, he has photos of both the old and new production on the Yahoo Early Rail Group forum (a group you might want to check out). He has also replaced the standard MRC DCC decoders with Tsunamis in these locos.
Thanks Fred for the additional info. I signed up for the group you mentioned, and will do some searching.
As far as kitbashing, it seems I alway want what I can’t have----or at least what nobody makes in the right scale. Then I’m always faced with trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, but somehow I alway get the feeling my results will end up being the reverse.
You can see the compound gear and motor arraignment at the ho seeker site. The older plans show the open frame motor. The gears are the same for the newer open frame motor that now uses the skewed armature. Those gears can be replaced with the NWSL MDC replacement gears that give you 45:1 gear reduction. Much better.
I bought a couple high driver 2-6-0 locos in 1998 and MDC/Roundhouse still had the low driver models and I have to assume, the same motor/gear setup. Below is the comparison of 1998 and 2008 2-6-0s. I have not seen the setup with the older open frame motor.
Below is a photo of the gear setup.
Athearn/Roundhouse have sold me parts for the Roundhouse steamers. They have a email site page you can inquire from.
Harold Mink who has been to this site, showed a conversion to lower the motor into the frame by grinding away some of the frame. Unfortunately his 1905 site is gone. I save the pages
I seem to recall that someone posted photos of an Austrian (I think) 2-6-4 with tender. It was fast passenger power, with drivers sized accordingly.
As for 2-6-4Ts, my prototype (Nihon Kokutetsu) had two classes that totalled 402 units. One C10 and five or six C11s are still operatational and occasionally run by a couple of tourist-oriented private railways. Quite a few are stuffed and mounted in various places around Japan.
There is one nicely restored V&T loco in the railroad museum at Virginia City, and the Nevada State Railroad Museum has several, at least one of which is occasionally steamed up for a run around the museum’s oval of track. Out of deference to the old lady’s boiler construction, they operate her at 40 PSI.
One feature (!) of mid-19th century Moguls is that many of them had odd driver spacing - two driving axles close together, with the third a considerable distance to the rear. The two listed in the Nevada State Museum’s inventory were comparatively modern - built in 1905 and 1913, with rather tall drivers. The 1860-70 locos are all 4-4-0s.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with several kitbashed locos)
I went back to ho seeker site and the old time 2-8-0 and the small driver 2-6-0 have the same part numbers for the older MDC locos.
I measured the drivers on my old time 2-8-0 and they are the same size as the drivers on my new Athearn/Roundhouse 2-8-0, 0.602". The small driver 2-6-0 must have the same size for cost considerations in manufacturing.
Lionel made bunches of them through the decades. The first post-war locomotive they made was a 2-6-4 # 221. Then there was the 224, 617, 675 (type V), 2026 (type III), 2029, 2035, 2036, 2037 (including the girl’s pink loco of 1950). Most of the O-27 steam locomotives produced in the 1950’s and early 1960’s were of this class.
Thanks Rich for all the links and additional info. I should have joined this forum ages ago, but I got away from model RR for quite a few years.
No disrespect or offense, but I have to correct you on a couple of points that probably only a V & T nut like me might know.
The wheel placement distances seem to be relative to the manufacturer. All the 19th century Baldwin’s and H. J, Booths that I have seen depicted had the non equal driver spacing while the engines by Rogers and Danforth all appear have had even spacing. There are probably exceptions, but this is what I have observed.
I do not know if it would be usable but PSC has a Mogul brass frame with about 7 ft between drivers. I picked one up some years ago. They still show it in their catalog, though I believe it was for a 1905 era high driver loco that I think was a Kemtron kit at one time before being bought out by PSC.
I do know there was a Yahoo Group a few years ago called the Mogul Men I think. I think they had something to do with a HO brass Mogul being imported at the time. I saw something in the Yahoo Early Rail Group a few years ago about the group.
Thanks again, Rich. From doing a little digging at the various on-line brass engine traders, I have found two period moguls—both by now defunct companies–Ken Kidder and Balboa, but they are both models of Porter engines. One of them might just stand in for a Danforth with nothing more than replacing the diamond stack with a balloon type
Since they are old models and not too much in demand, they are not terribly pricey, but still a lot more than I can pick up several of the Roundhouse models for. I think I am going to try that route first–If I can find a bargain on Ebay. Luckily I found a RR model shop going out of business many years ago and bought out just about all of their old time brass detailing parts for a song. Consequently, I’ve got nice little assortment of 1870’s style domes, bells, headlamps, pilots, smokestacks, etc,
In case you are still around, here is what i got from Athearn/Roundhouse today about the availability of the 2-8-0 drivers that are the same as the drivers on the MDC small driver Mogul. The front and rea driver have different part numbers. You can see that using the ho seeker site documents.
Those parts are available and please see below the prices. We charge
$5.50 for shipping and we do accept visa or mastercard without the
expiration date.
Please give us your complete address also when you place the order.
Thank you.
Athearn Trains
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:17 PM
To: athearn parts; Horizon Hobby Webmaster
Subject: Contact from Roundhouse Trains.com
Comments: Are these parts available for the 2-8-0?
2428-PR14-$5.50
2428-PR15-$5.50
2428-PR16-$7.50
2428-PR17-$5.50
A word of caution regarding MDC made drivers and the new production Athearn drivers… Don’t assume the axle diameters are identical on what otherwise appears to be the same wheelset. Also, Athearn drivers are insulated on both sides whereas most, but not all, MDC drivers are only insulated on one side.
Thanks for the info. I just snagged an old Roundhouse mogul kit with 51" drivers at auction for just under $35 total including shipping. I know it’s a fairly old kit since it is partitioned in styrofoam rather than rather than blue foam rubber as the later kits were, but the seller assured by e-mail that me the parts were all there.
I may still watch for one of the later Athern made RTR 2-8-0’s, but I want to wait until I get the kit in my hands before I consider buying anything else.
