Just curious if anyone knows what the safe top speed of your average monorail is, or could be made to be. A recent trip to Disney got me to thinking about the use of monorails in place of the Maglevs and other high-speed lines that some cities and regions are considering. It would seem a monrail would be cheaper than anything like a maglev, and use very little real estate, but I think it’s speed would be limited.
I know Las Vegas recently put a monorail into service (and with lots of problems) but could something like this be made to extend over relatively long distances, like some of the regional high speed lines now proposed? (Pittsburgh’s downtown to airport or a harrisburg-philly run comes to mind, I’m sure there are lots of others)
Depends substantially on the guideway construction and suspension system used in your monorail. You can achieve quite high speeds from magnetic-levitation monorail systems, for example (cf. Transrapid) – although I suspect most of the systems that carry the roll center of the vehicles above the track structure don’t offer the economies of guideway construction that you’re considering.
Suspended monorails, of course, are capable of relatively cheap inherent high speed; they’re pendulum-suspended and “automatically” bank on curves, for example, and can have any form of high-speed suspension possible for underrunning-rail vehicles.
The big catch with monorails is that the entire guideway needs to be an engineered and precise structure, with foundation requirements underneath it sufficient to hold the supports and guideway in accurate alignment (and allow adjustment for settling, wear, etc. to restore that accurate alignment cost-effectively when necessary). Contrast this with the cost of typical high-speed track (use the new TGV lines for a model) and the kind of operations that characterize railroad lining and surfacing. Switching monorails is NOT a particularly difficult technical exercise, but doing it right is a fairly expensive thing (cf. the Alweg flexible-beam switch methods).
You’ll get extremely limited returns on capital for anything short of a network of monorail service, except for a few select destination pairs (I think LAUPT-Vegas may be one such) where the vertical separation between the (elevated) monorail structure and other modes is minimized, or it’s comparatively unimportant how the pax get from the monorail stops to whatever ultimate destinations they have.
I’d think the potential payback on an entirely-elevated new line, capable of carrying nothing but dedicated passenger ‘capsules’, between the airport and nothing else but a few downtown stops, would be impossibly long. Not entirely sure what major gains you’d get from high speed in
Terror activity on a suspended rail? Pffth.
20 pounds of explosive under a rail in my town while a chemical car with chlorine gas is sufficient to probably wipe out all 7000 or so people within 20 miles down wind late at night.
Rail location on the ground or suspended above matters little.
NYC is FULL of elevated and I have yet to see a terror strike specifically against these type of rail.
Dutch Wonderland in PA near Lancaster has had a monorail system as a amusement for many years. I think they suffered a fire that destroyed two of the three orginal cars. The third trainset is for sale I think.
Google Dutch Wonderland into the net and you will find some pictures of the monorail including a switch they use to get the sets to and from the shop.
I never had any worries riding the mono. I think it is going to be alot more monos in the future.
Lots of amusement parks have them… Hershey park, DIsney has an extensive system with switches, etc… you mentioned Dutch Wonderland, but they tend to be very low speed systems (I would estimate Disney’s average train speed to be about 20-25 mph)… I was just wondering if it’s practical to use them on a larger scale between cities or as a regional light rail/high speed rail.
I just found this document about the Disneyland monorail. If anyone is interested in that kind of stuff, it’s a decent read. Capable of speeds of over 50 mph, but usually runs at 35 mph. This document has specifications for the cars and tracks, but is almost 20 years old now it looks like.
http://www.asme.org/history/brochures/h115.pdf
In Wuppertal germany they have what they call the Schwebebahn, which is a monorail that they use as part of their public transport system. It’s a right good laugh
http://www.schwebebahn.de/ is their website
For a truly efficient rail service, double track seems to be imperative. A double track mainline of HSR eats up no more space lenghtwise and widthwise than a double track elevated monorail… While there would be space between the pillars on the ground, the track is still above.
Monorails use tires and are therefore less efficient than steel on steel… For long distances an elevated HSR system would be preferrable… But its much cheaper to build tracks on ground level…very similar to highways…
Is the monorail still running in Seattle? Old, short, bumpy, cheap,usually crowded, but what a great system to move people, I would not want to know what it’s initial cost was, say what you like, the bloody thing works(worked) and it’s fun to ride, but it’s to short.
…The Disney system has been in operation in Florida since about 1971 if my memory serves be correctly and runs along at a moderate speed…{35 is indicated above for the Calif. system}, and I can’t say for sure just what the Disney World system in Florida speed is, probaby similar to the above mentioned system. It sure is an effecient system to move people at Disney several miles point to point.
The track it runs on would have to be considerably more engineered for more speed. I’ve ridden in the control cabs several times and never really ask how fast we were traveling, etc…For short hauls it seems a great way to move people. But out in the pubic domain hauling paying customers, I’m sure it would have to have quite a bit of different engineering done to fill that job. My thought is it would have promise. I question whether it would be cheaper to build and operate over conventional ground light rail systems though…
I also doubt that it would be cheaper than light rail on the ground, I just meant it would be cheaper than high-speed rail, but being elevated it wouldn’t have the need to stop at grade crossings and if the engineering could be done to keep it safe and smooth at high-speed (60-90 mph) it could be a good alternative. It would be easier to fit into tight urban ares because of the smaller required footprint. A monorail’s novelty could draw more passengers than similar conventional light rail/HSR. As far as competition to conventional light rail, I imagine the inital cash outlay would be far greater with a monorail, but future maintanance costs may well be lower, I don’t know for sure.
…For sure it certainly is an interesting concept…and in Disney’s case, a real workable system now for years. When the doors open the length of the train eveyone exits at once and it’s ready to be filled with another load of passengers…Just doesn’t get much more effecient than that. But that is Disney’s operation under a close controlled system. Agree there would be advantages of no grade crossings and that surely IS a big advantage in metropolitan areas. I’m surprised more hasn’t been done in this field with monorail’s for transportation around cities, etc…As Dave M says…it does present a pretty small foot print.
Comments on monorails.
Look at the car size for the Disney monorails. They are SMALL which means that not a lot of people can be carried at one time. The smaller size gives a smaller footprint, but at the sake of passenger capacity. The monorail (Disney variety) is an inverted pendelum which is inherantly unstable. This means that more stiffening of the train support system will be required at more cost. The monorail running on a concrete beam is essentially a bridge. We all know that building a rail line on a bridge is far more expensive than laying track on terra firma. To prevent sway from the inverted pendulum the rubber tires have to grip the monorail tightly. This means excessive tire wear. (Buy Firestone and Goodyear stocks) I am not aware of a freight system that uses a monorail except the overhead conveyors on assembly lines. Look at Las Vegas and the toothing problems they have with their monorail. Disney has many problems with theirs, but it is part of the “amusement park” as such is another ride. It is not the most effecient transit system. Yes Disney loads and unloads the monorail quickly, but remember that people handling is Disney’s forte. The next time you are at one of their parks look how they effeciently move people at rides, concession stands, etc. Compare their people handling with any other amusement park and the contenders cannot hold a candle to Disney. (I am not an employer of Disney and I do not have any investment in the company so hopefully I am not biased).
…Wr…All your observations understood…and I couldn’t agree with you more…No one, moves people like Disney does. I’m drawing on memory here without digging out photos…Believe the trains are about 5 to 7 cars in length and each car hold 5 people across and about 30 per car…so somewhere between 150 to 210 per train. Not too shabby for transportation around a metropolitan area…As for reliability, that I have no figures…but we have stayed on the grounds many times up to 10 continous days at the Contempary hotel and really get a good eye full of them there and never have I seen a lack of trains running. But what it costs to keep a fleet of trains such as these running I have no idea…Tire ware…? Don’t know that either but doubt if that is more of a problem than tires are over the highway…The stabilizing tires are just moderate size and the supporting tires…{the ones running on top of the concrete rail are much larger…About the size of a good size truck tire.
Modelcar–
Here’s a simple exercise that scratches the surface. Count the number of wheels (tires) on your 5-7 car monorail that carries 150-210 people. Count the number of moving electrical contacts and traction motors. Estimate the train length.
Now count the number of wheels, number of pans, and estimate train length on the 1-2 light rail cars you need to accommodate the same number of passengers.
This little exercise should give you a good basic handle on why Disney has a great, sexy looking carnival ride that has never made a significant dent in the fixed guideway market. It’s all about cost and track capacity (real estate and line capacity).
As I mentioned above…I don’t have any input on the cost to run the Monorail at Disney or any other location…I do know it is capable of moving large quanities of people under the conditions that Disney uses them…Trains can run every few minutes of the previous unit to pass. Moving masses of people in and out of the park is more of an exercise than a carnival ride. They seem to run under a block system from the signals I’ve watched.
I guess I have to say a word or two about the Las Vegas Monorail, both good and bad, as the system was working when I was there.
These are not the hatch-opening Alweg type of monorail that require a cadre of cheeful young people to lock the passenger (or, in my case, potential claustrophobe) in. Vegas used to have a small one, hardly a route, in a sea-green monorail–in fact, I think it was an Alweg and very similar to the one that ran (still runs?) thru the contemporary resort at Walt Disney Word in FL. It ran from the MGM’s “backyard,” which a few years ago was given over to a family-centric theme park, basically the length of two resorts and crossing only one boulevard. The Alweg at WDW is much more appealing and impressive but, as earlier writers have noted, also incredibly labor-intensive.
The Vegas Monorail cars have transverse as well as fore-and-aft seating, provision for the handicapped, and reminded me a great deal of a large-scale people mover like the ones at Chicago’s O’Hare Airport or the one at Hartsfield-Atlanta, the latter being in fact practically a mini-subway to the point that I’m not sure whether it would hang in the category of “light rail” or of “heavy rail.” (Chicago’s “L” system, the real rapid transit not the airport shuttle, is the very lightest of “Heavy Rail” in the USA, or so I’m told/). Knowledgeable readers that you are, or if you have some years on you, the Chicago L is very reminiscent of NYC’s Elevated, which I think ran down Second (or was it Third?) Avenue. Oh, I’m digressing. Sorry.[:I]
The Vegas Monorail can hold scads of people, both seated and standing. My friend and I had a taste of its versatility when a convention in the new multi-use center vomited out dozens of delegates, all of whom were able to squeeze onto our train.
But to get back to the original question, the Monorail literature available says that it is capable of 50 mph (80 k/ph) AND I BELIEVE THEM. The jaunt from Harrah’s around the back of t
…The heat of Vegas can make one do strange things…Been there years ago many times…as we were doing testing work in he desert near Kingman, Az…Have no experience with the Vegas Monorail system though. I’ve been places in that climate that I would have gladly paid much more than 2 dollars for water…any water…!
All comments are interesting re; monorails…Have no idea if they may gain in numbers around the country in appropriate locations or not…
Cadre of people to lock the passenger in ?..One button opens all the doors on the Disney train. And yes the station stop still exists inside the Contempary Hotel. At least it did a few years ago.
Modelcar, you make a good point. Certainly I didn’t mean to say that Alweg passengers are incapable of “springing” themselves in an urgent or emergency situation.
But when I rode the WDW monorail, human power closed the doors (or hatches, whatever). I’m sure with enough experience even an old guy like me could challenge the assumption that public transportation must needs be less confining than private car or taxi. Perhaps, on a sheer efficiency quota, it would be easier to ship seated humans than standing humans? Especially when one musn’t let too much dust and dirt into the lobby of what (I happily admit) is a very clean lobby.
Re Vegas: Six years ago, when I was at the late, short, green, Alweg line that used to run out of the MGM complex, it was over 100 degrees F. (customary for July!), and it was durn HOT inside the monorail. Couldnt’ blame the overwhelmed AC on standees, of course, as it’s impossible to have standees in that Alweg…
I had the pleasure of taking the Wuppertal (Duesseldorf area) “dangle-bahn” (Schwebebahn) many years ago and I agree with the writer above who characterized it as something like a horizontal funicular.
Why is it that the transit systems of Western Europe can keep modes of transport (and the carriages required, often) for 75 to 100 years or even more?
smalling…You are so correct…Humans for sure do slam the doors shut at Disney…I had forgot that bit of trivia. Often I remember thinking how do those doors stand that constant pounding for about 20 hrs. or so each day, 7 days a week without falling off, etc…A/C…Those were always pretty much up to the job at WDW. That too, made me think of how in the world do they put enough capacity in it to do the job with constant opening and closing of doors every, few minutes, etc…
We seem to be able to do these things I suppose it’s a matter of what one is willing to pay for…and many things Disney, at the resort did {does}, many things well…but oh, the prices are going sky high lately.
let’s not confuse a monorail for a train ok?.. a monorail is just a bus in the air. it rides on rubber wheels on a cement or steel road…not a track.