Pro Paint Question

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Hi folks. A few good painters have been recommended to me and I have been checking out their work online. However I have not found anyone still alive here in the US who is routinely matching the quality of some of the multicolor steam paint jobs like Boo Rim is currently doing in South Korea.

Whom would you trust with a thousand dollar unpainted steamer that gets a very complex scheme such as T&P or GN engines received: specifically green boiler with everything on the boiler black, graphite smokebox front and sides, graphite firebox, tuscan red cab roof, polished valve gear, white running board edges, chrome plated or painted cylinder covers and stack cap, of course working headlight and backup light…?

One very large online brass dealer already said they have nobody who can paint such a project.

So who out there is comfortable doing that kind of work and can reassemble a great running engine to still run well??

Last place I knew was David Long of Kelly Creek Backshop in Bozeman, Montana. His regearing, painting, lighting were second to none but that was some years ago and I have seen no ads lately. His work was amazing and as good or better than Bob Hunter’s amazing work. Sadly, Mr. Hunter for certain is no longer with us.

Thank you all.

John

2

I found David Long’s old phone number online and can try that in the day to see if he still does the work.

3

Contact Gwynne Burch in Alabama. I don’t have his contact information, but Jan Willard does…301 865 3051. Burch is an excellent painter and has done many of the Overland “factory Painted” models…both steam and diesel. There is also Hal Maynard in Florida who is quite excellent, but like me, he has graduated from artifact to “collectible” status.

I knew Bobby Hunter quite well. besides being my airbrush painting instructor, his full time job was working for one of my companies during the 80’s. I would classify him probably the best ever custom painter specializing in “realistic” painting…not weathering as it is known today. He did pass away around four years ago after to moving to Eden, NC.

4

Thanks much Howard–

I am aware of Mr. Burch, however, all the G.B. painted models currently available for sale on the market (and there are indeed some gorgeous models) are of lesser complexity paint schemes. So for that reason I posted this topic, just to try to find out who the folks are who are painting the complicated T&P and GN schemes with numerous color separations…Somebody is painting them, as I can see them in YouTube videos…(and some are Boo Rim models).

Thanks again, to all.

John

5

Just received a rough verbal paint quote over the phone: Between $500 and $800 for the full paint job treatment, with the “Russian Iron” blue green. If I just want to do a black engine, with the graphite smokebox/firebox, then about $500.

I expected prices to be up, but not quite that high…must save or find another vendor.

Price based upon $50/hour rate for the painter.

John

6

John,

Holy great buckets of bubbled bull poop! That price seems a bit off the wall. But then again I am still firmly planted in the mid 50’s.

Russian Iron may be simulated almost perfectly by using locksmith’s powdered graphite applied to boiler by swirling with a short bristled paint brush. Check out my several You tube videos as I have done this to many of my locos. Nickel steel also looks the same. I think you have seen these upon your visit here.

As you are a T&P nut, most of their steam locos had painted boilers…some light gray and muted green hues.

HZ

7

Yes, indeed. The time issue is in the masking of all the multiple color separations.

If I want an engine to look like the Boo Rim 4-8-2 Howard obtained on my behalf from another dealer, there are numerous color separations. The cylinder side jacketing is green, rest of cylinder is black, but the caps on the front are chrome, for example.

I might save some money by going more for a weathered greenish/gray look…but if I want the as-rebuilt gorgeous multi-colors, then I will have to “step up” and pay.

At this point, buying already painted brass looks like a winner.

Till I take my $800 unpainted mikado, and sink $700 or so into a paint job, I would have $1500 into an engine that might only be “worth” $1200 on the current market. It would be beautiful, but at the same time, a questionnable investment.

Decisions, decisions, decisions…

8

The prices sound pretty outrageous to me, and I can’t see much reason for it, other than the painter sees a fairly expensive brass locomotive and an opportunity to take advantage of its owner.
A lot of the details would be better done using a brush, and in that case, most wouldn’t require masking. Masking might be required for the graphite stuff, cab roof and cylinder covers, but only the latter would be somewhat involved.
I suppose charging by the hour has some merit - at least a constant part of the equation. When I started, I had no clue what professional painters charged, and my prices were simply for the job, which initially worked out to about a buck an hour. I started to tire of the job (all diesels and all almost identical initially) and began to jack-up prices just to discourage more orders, but even doubling the price had no effect.
I later got into painting brass, which was more enjoyable and more varied, but would never have thought to charge by the hour - I simply work too slowly to justify it, unless the hourly rate were ridiculously low. That would really backfire on easy jobs.
I still paint for myself and a very limited number of friends, but for the latter, I offer no guarantee on the completion time and they pay for the paint.

Is there any chance that you could paint it yourself? The fact that you’re looking for someone to do it would indicate not, but I thought the same of myself at one time. Some knowledge of airbrushing would be needed, of course, but I don’t see it as too complicated. As for the masking, it’s pretty-well common sense, a roll of masking tape, straight edge, and some sharp #11 blades. For brush-painting the details, all you need is a fairly steady hand and a few good-quality brushes suited to the paint-type you’re using and to the size of the details.
I’d certainly make an attempt before possibly dumping $800 down the toilet.

Wayne

&n

9

Painter in question is very very good and has done work for me in the past, but his hourly rate is now double what it was then. He did amazing regear work and painting of PFM DRGW L-131’s for me…

Painter in question worked 20 years for Northwest Short Line and now has his own business doing regearing, DCC installs, lighting, painting, etc.

So it wouldn’t necessarily be money “down the toilet” as his work rivals the very best factory painted anything coming out of Korea.

However, I’m just not sure I can afford it right here today. May go there in a couple months.

I once painted an Overland Models L&HR/CR C-420, and when I put it back together, the previously fine running engine did not run so well, and my paint work was so-so at best. I would never attempt to tackle complete disassembly, painting and reassembly of a very scarce Key/Samhongsa steamer. I do not have the skillset.

John

10

John,

Actually I can understand pricing for custom painting at $50 per hour. I hate to admit it, but this is now 2017 and things have changed quite a bit. If you noticed my display of custom built structures at the Timonium show, I have a sign that reads…“Please inquire about pricing, but remember that I quit working for $3 per hour in 1956”. If I were not retired (since 1987), I’d be out of my mind trying to make a living at doing anything in the model railroad field as far as custom work and retail. Most folks who do custom work do it for enjoyment, but still are entitled to fair compensation. While I’m working in my shop and charging $25 per hour for my services, although I know that I’m retired and cannot afford to make too much, still I get incensed while the plumber or electrician is here charging me around $100 per hour. But then again, I had my fair share while working professionally and have no complaints.

Point: if the work is as good as you say, then $50 per hour or $500 for a paint job ain’t too bad. I quit doing custom painting for others years ago as I found that to paint a brass steam loco properly, 10 hours were required, but at the time, $200 was the going price. I also found that the 1980’s era Korean brass was easy to disassemble, but a bear to put back together and still have it run properly. In the old days when most brass came from Japan, I’d completely disassemble as most locos were more made with much better precision. When I paint one of my Korean models today, I just remove boiler from frame and all trucks from tender and loco. Drivers are painted while spinning and I no longer disassmble trucks…just paint as they are.

HZ

11

Thanks again for your posts Howard and all.

Oh, yes, I don’t begrudge anybody a fair price, though I must admit that professionally I have worked very hard to get where I am at 25 years in design engineering, and I don’t make the $50 per hour, so I’m a wee bit frustrated at the price.

However, it is not out of line considering the gentleman’s high standard of work. He’ll be somewhere closer to 14 hours rather than 10–which is still very fast as compared to my friends who have dabbled with brass painting–as Bill V. averages 20 hours for a steamer (which would definitely not include all the color separations I’m talking about here).

John

12

Speaking in terms of monetary collector value, as much as I want to get some items painted, if I do, the investment in each brass engine will be more than what they would bring on the open market, even with the outstanding paint job.

So I’ll have to “settle” for perhaps a lesser paint job elsewhere, or less colors, or most likely I will re-evaluate and return to buying only factory painted or custom painted models, and then sell/trade my unpainted ones in on those.

John

13

Paint jobs can vary greatly in quality. Some shoot paint on a locomotve and never completely disassemble and clean all the parts. Some do and you usually get a lasting, quality paint job. I found that there’s about 8 hours of work involved in the process of doing a paint job not including any drying or waiting times. Multi color jobs like GN, T&P & Southern are fairly complex schemes requiring even much more time to execute. Also most painters charge when they have to change colors which involves cleaning equipment, extra masking and different paints. Thinner and cleaning items are expensive too.

I don’t know if you have noticed but the number of paint & decal manufacturers and the prices of the existing paints has been crazy for some time and I see no change for the better coming our way. Naturally everything involved in the process has increased and continues to increase in price while availablity decreases.

Add in the cost of electricity and any other supplies and I think it’s fairly easy to expect to pay $50/hr for a paint job done correctly.

Anyway, do your research and find a painter that will produce a quality job for you. Look for one that paints all the parts and will cooperate with your needs to deliver something you can both be proud of.

My 2¢ worth,

Roger Huber

Deer Creek Locomotive Works

14

Roger,

It would be easier to find an honest politician than to find what you suggest today.

HZ

15

If I were still painting commercially, I wouldn’t charge more than $200.00, plus materials, for that job, but then I’m not familiar with your painter’s work and perhaps mine wouldn’t be as good.
If you’ve had good results from him in the past, and haven’t seen anybody else whose work approaches it, then perhaps his prices aren’t outrageous, but simply, at the moment, out of reach.
I certainly didn’t mean to demean the man, but I am familiar with painters around my area who are good and charge commensurately, and others who charge similar, but aren’t anywhere near as good. A lot of people equate high cost with high quality…maybe I should have been from Missouri…[swg]

Wayne

16

The guy I’m talking to is a fantastic painter, and has done work for me previously, 15 years ago. He is very experienced, and his paint work seriously at least matches the quality of anything Boo Rim is doing on current production brass (I have one of those models on hand to compare). He can take PFM articulateds with their sometimes a bit too much solder and clean them up to look like…much newer models.

He just sent me a quote, based upon painting a green boiler Rio Grande M-67 and previous Great Northern glacier park green paint scheme engines, of 12 to 16 hours. One reason for the variability is the model in question is a Key/Samhongsa 1981 model of a T&P 2-8-2, and as Howard has said, from that time they disassemble easily but don’t always go back together as well as one might expect.

So, I believe the painter is honest. He always was within the high end of his quoted range whenever he worked for me in the past. He never went over-budget, and the quality of deliverables was amazing.

My model, which I have $800 into, is worth $875 according to brasstrains.com most aggressive value price. If I get it painted, I will have minimum $1400 into it, and cannot sell it for anywhere near that, should I or my estate ever want to do so.

I will be better off to trade it in for a newer, more detailed or more sought after something else which will better command the higher price point. Even if I should lose a couple hundred bucks, I’ll come out financially better on the other end.

Or, I decide I want it done right, pay the freight, shut up, run it and be happy without regard or care of whether I ever get the money out of it.

The price of the paint job is like half of my regular yearly train “budget” so I must “choose wisely” rather than “he chose…poorly”, lol.

John

17

All of us have limitations when it comes to money, John, but if that locomotive pleases you and would please you even more if it were properly painted, then I’d say that it would be worthwhile for you to save until you can afford to have it done.

The value of the locomotive to you, in the most meaningful sense of those words, is much greater, I think, than the value to anyone else in mere dollars.

Wayne

18

Hi Wayne–

As you referenced I have seen a large number of custom painted models that are not done as well as what I would consider the more recent factory paint jobs to be. This is also why I generally have issues sticking to just one roadname. It can be hard finding well painted models.

Just yesterday I got a deal on a leftover BLI hybrid UP 4-12-2 painted and put a small layaway deposit on it. Though I prefer full brass models the hybrids do provide bang for the buck, and I can sell some other trains to raise more cash.

John

19

I sometimes paint models for others… although I would never paint a brass model for anyone else.

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I paint primarily 3" and taller figures, mainly military in theme, when I paint for money. My only model railroad related comission was to paint twenty-four G scale figures, that was right up my alley. I charged $4,000.00 for that job.

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The point is… these prices, even the ones that people say are high, all seem very low to me. I would charge over $500.00 to paint a Games-Workshop Thunderhawk, and that is much easier than dealing with a brass locomotive model.

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-Kevin

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