Today, after completing the installation of lights and “people” in a new HO scale passenger car, I decided I needed a break to just enjoy watching passenger trains run for a while. I put together 2 passenger trains, each pointing in the opposite direction of my double-track mainline, so I could enjoy a “meet”. When my DL-109 pulling my new car in its train got to a turnout near a bridge, it derailed. I first checked the wheel gauge on the engine to see if maybe the problem was this particular engine. The wheels were okay so I removed that engine and put a PA at the head of the train. Same problem, same turnout. So, obviously if these engines would run around the whole layout okay and then derail on this turnout, the turnout is the culprit.
Interestingly, I’ve been running 2-axle truck engines on both mainlines for a while without any problems. It has to be the 3-axle trucks that “don’t like this turnout”. The only thing I can see about this particular turnout is that when the wheels on one side go through the frog, they lift up and drop down quickly, which appears to be what’s derailing the engine. With the 3-axle truck, when the last set of wheels move up and down as described, it seems to cause the front wheelset to derail.
Have any of you guys had this problem? Is my only recourse to replace the turnout or can I make some modification to the turnout?
What radii are you using? 3 axle units often have trouble with narrower radii. Are the trucks moving freely in all directions? Somes times slightly narrowing the gauge of the leading wheel can help.
Mondo, is this the only turnout that does this? From my experience, here is the problem as I see it. First off the gap in the frogs of our model track is way wider then prototype frogs allowing the wheels to drop into this gap more so then the prototype do. Ten to one the older wheels with those “deep” flanges would roll right through them as the flanges would ride on the bottom of that gap, keeping the wheels from dropping to far. Second problem is the construction of three axle trucks- they are not sprung, but solid. That center axle acts as a fulcrum so when the rear axle drops the front raises. Have I made sense so far? Solution. A thin strip of styrene can be layed in that grove so the RP25 wheel flanges will ride on that and keep the wheel from dropping in that gap or a new turnout with a shallower gap could replace that turnout. Ken
Two axle trucks are much more forgiving of track imperfections than three axle trucks are. I had a problem with one small section of track that posed no problem with my geeps but would derail some of SD’s every time. It turned out that one rail dipped a bit while the other was level. After correcting this, I’ve had no further problem with derailments. Sounds to me as if you have a similiar problem.
Thank you for the input. To answer your question…yes, this one turnout seems to have a grove worn in the plastic frog (I’m using Walther’s code 83 turnouts made by Shinohara). The engine goes through 10 or 15 other turnouts around the layout with no problem. Either this turnout was defective or somehow wheels have worn a grove in this one turnout. Before I go ahead and replace the whole turnout, I’m going to try your suggestion regarding placing a piece of styrene over the grove. Acutally, now that I think about it, maybe I should try filling up the grove with a little epoxy…it will probably be as resilient as styrene and considering I just have a little grove to fill, maybe that will do the trick. What do you think?
Boy, until I ran these passenger trains today…which I really haven’t done for several years, I didn’t realize I had any problem with the track. We even had an operating session several months ago with 4 operators and the track seemed fine. Of course, we were only running freight trains with 2-axle engines
When you say “narrow the gauge of the leading wheel”, do you mean to do it on both the front and rear trucks or just the front? I think you’re onto something here and I’d like to try it.
While you’re working on the frog, check the guard rail. Excesive clearance may allow the wheel to pick the point of the frog. Not sure how much mods you can do to the early Walther’s turnout though.
Mondo, This caught my eye while reading your reply to my reply to you. You stated the locos haven’t been run for several years and that the turnout is code 83. It may be possible the loco has the old “deep flange” wheels on it. Check the wheel flange size compared to newer rolling stock. Ken
No, the engines I’m running don’t have wheels with the deep flanges. They are fairly new Proto engines…both the PA’s and DL109’s to pull my passenger trains.
I’ve had similar experiences with locomotives. I found my problem was that the turnout was not perflectly flat and was warped slightly during installation. It took some surgery but I was able to fix it. A straight edge along the top of the rails and a level to check side-to-side height eveness were my tools of cho
Since we now know that the problems are w/P2K engines, one thing you may want to check is the play in the trucks. Proto has basically solved the issues they were having with very tight trucks (no or very little side play) with thier SDs. The problem started with the SD7/9s. the worm gear cover(fingers) caused the truck to not have any side play causing derailments at turnouts like you mention. When I addressed the problem to Proto, they were aware of this and sent replacement covers. I had already remedied the problem bt lightly sanding the fingers on one truck to allow some side movement.
I feel the problem still lies w/ the switch, but this could also be a factor.
I’ve had similar experiences with locomotives. I found my problem was that the turnout was not perflectly flat and was warped slightly during installation. It took some surgery but I was able to fix it. A straight edge along the top of the rails and a level to check side-to-side height eve
I’ve had similar experiences with locomotives. I found my problem was that the turnout was not perflectly flat and was warped slightly during installation. It took some surgery but I was able to fix it. A straight edge along the top of the rails and a level to che
Yes, that’s what I mean. Experiment with it a little at a time. Try first with the front truck, if it works, then turn the engine around and try it in that direction. If that doesn’t do it, you might also want to open the engine up and check to make sure there’s no wires preventing a full swing of the trucks. If it doesn’t work it’s reversible and then you’ll have to deal with the turnout.
I had a similar problem with a P2K PA and it worked like a charm.
Epoxy fix: Yes, the frog can be filled with epoxy. I would only recommend an epoxy like JB Weld or JB Quik or plumbers epoxy as they set up hard like styrene and can be carved, drilled and sanded like styrene. Be sure to allow the full 24 hours of curing time before proceding. Do not use your regular clear household 5-min epoxy, it never gets truely hard. A hacksaw blade can be used to recut the grooves.