Being new to MR, I am looking for advice on prototypical car sequence of a mixed express freight/passenger train. This is scaled down from the actual numbers.
The scene: 1960’s, passenger service is dying, but a few coaches still moving on express freight routes.
Example: A mixed train travelling directly from Kansas City to St. Louis; no stops; priority freight(perishables).
Actual freight length scaled down for practical modeling reasons, with the following cars included:
(1) pullman green coach
(1) matching RPO
(2) matching REA express cars
A block of four old style meat reefers, freshly iced down at the meat packing plant in KC.
(8) modern plug door mechanical reefers carrying fruits and vegetables from California to various eastern destinations.
So we have a total of 16 cars representing the actual full length train. My question is, in what exact sequence would the prototype have cars have been placed?
Assuming such a train could have existed, would it have run in daylight or overnight on a 24 hour fast clock?
Historically normal practice would be to have the reefers and REA express cars first. Next would come the RPO, then a baggage car and finally a coach,all of which would be painted for the railroad, not Pullman. But your example would present problems, since at least some of the time the passenger equipment will require steam heat and the mechanical reefers in particular are unlikely to be equipped with steam lines. Have you modified the trucks of the reefers to handle the faster passenger speeds safely?
The bottom line is that such a train consist probably never existed.
There is also unlikley to be a RPO car in the consist, as there were very few RPOs operational in the 60s.
As an alternative, several railroads, NYC specifically comes to mind, that used an older passanger car on their M&E (Mail and Express) trains. They were typically ran on a timetable like a passanger train, but had Baggage Cars (frequently full of mail) REA cars, Flexi-vans, TOFCs and any other type of express car you could think of. What was frequently at the end? A passanger car with a coal stove in it for heat. Usually several of the central windows were covered with sheet steel. That is where the Conductor and Rear Brakeman rode, but not paying passangers. No steam required due to the wood stove.
The “old style” reefers and mechanical reefers would have a speed restriction slower than the passenger cars and express cars. Any train with them in the consist would be subject to freight train speed restrictions instead of passenger train speeds. As stated such a train would probably never have existed or would be a rare exception if you could find a prototype.
I think you’re kinda mixing a couple of things together here.
The chances of a railroad merging a scheduled fast freight or reefer express and a passenger train to make a mixed train is pretty remote. MIxed trains generally were used on branch and secondary lines where the railroad didn’t have enough passengers to warrant a separate passenger train and freight train on the line. A mixed train that ran non-stop between two metropolitan areas would be pretty unlikely too.
However, in the 1960’s it wasn’t uncommon however for a railroad to put a few freight cars like TOFC cars or express reefers with passenger trucks behind the passenger cars of a scheduled passenger train.
It also happened that a railroad would combine a mail train with a passenger train, creating trains like Great Northern’s Western Star or Northern Pacific’s Mainstreeter which would be 14-16 cars long, with more than half of the cars being baggage or RPO cars carrying mail. On a mainline train if you had an RPO you’d normally have at least a couple of baggage cars of mail along with it, usually one on either side of the RPO so the clerks could sort the mail from the baggage cars en route. Generally the RPO was mainly for sorting mail en route, not for carrying mail or express.
It’s important to understand that the big drop in the number of passenger trains happened because the US Mail cancelled virtually all of it’s railroad contracts in the mid-sixties. Without the money coming in from carrying mail (sometimes in RPO cars but more often in sealed bags in baggage cars) many passenger trains that were breaking even or making some profit became money losers.
On a mixed train, where the passenger cars were located generally was determined by how they were heated. If the passenger cars had their own stoves for heat, they could go on the end of the train. If they required steam from the locomotive, they would h
“Stix” is generally right on, but we can be more specific about when the Post Office cancelled most RPO contracts. It was May 1, 1967, with most RPO lines making their last runs in September and October of that year. A few RPO lines remained in what we now call the Northeast Corridor, and the last RPOs, between Washington, DC, and New York City, ran on July 30, 1977.
Although my memories of the '60’s are vague, I chose that era to model because of the state of flux railroads were in. I’m thinking almost anything goes, when fighting mergers, bancruptcy, loss of mail contracts, etc.
Wasn’t it at the September Tulsa LD/OP weekend that a presenter recalled an operating session where spouses and girlfriends paired with members? The women concluded “you guys have amazing imaginations!” I believe I was trying to stretch mine. I will ask another more feasible question next.
Thank you all for your input. You are steering me in a better direction. And I now have a reason to look for a pair of short baggage cars…
Thank you for your thoughtful(and thought provoking) reply. Although my imaginary consist wouldn’t work, this was the kind of knowledgable detail I was looking for. No doubt I mixed some ideas when trying to create a scenario for a “themed” train rather than the manifest freights I currently operate on my home pike.
Although long passenger trains look good on our club layout with 36" to 48" radius curves, I was limiting myself to 60’ maximums and two axle trucks on my home road, due to some 21-24" radius curves. Saturday I picked up two used green heavy weight pieces at a bargain, just to test the look on my tightest curves. I found they didn’t look too bad in limited numbers. Hence my need to justify their addition to my all freight railroad.
Now I am wondering if they have to exist as a short single coach mail train or can find their way tagged onto my longer, lower speed freighters.
For the slightly possible longer trains I would like to raise the question of HEP cars to provide heat (and light) for passenger and RPO cars.
Okay there are limits to what can be run together - particularly due to truck types and speed restrictions - but can someone please explain how HEP would fit into this scenario?
Something that goes along with this - I’ve recently watched an Amtrak HEP car on E Bay. It had the headless arrow livery so it was early period. Where would Atrak have still had trains needing HEP please and when would they have been replaced.
I also have a question aboout private/heritage cars (e.g. museum cars allowed to run in regular traffic consists). Would they need “re-plumbing” or have a HEP car?
As to the OP I would yet again turn to my favourite excuse for running soething a bit odd and suggest that any sall consist of passenger cars might have been detoured from somewhere…
Not all reefers recieved special trucks when assigned to express service, Pacific Fruit Express would supply the Railway Express Agency with standard reefers that with exception of replacement axles, application of steam/signal lines and olive paint were no different then their freight counterparts. Even arch bar trucks were used in this service. Intermixing of reefer generations was also common up to the end of the ice age in 1973 for the primary reason that many existing customers could not accept a 50-60 or even 40 foot car at their loading docks.
One place that AMTK used HEP power cars was on the Northeast Corridor. They were used to allow GG1s and steam-equipped E60s to haul Amfleet and other HEP cars. They were seen from about 1974 to the end of the GG1s in the early 1980s. The HEP power car could be right behind the engine or it could be the last car on the train.
Express/mail trains are “passenger” trains as all the cars are passenger-car-equipped by having steam lines, signal lines, high-speed wheelsets, etc. Thus, steam heat from the locomotive could serve a lonely rider coach at the train’s end. Typically, express box cars, express reefers, mail/RPO cars, and baggage/express cars would be at the front of the train, with rider coach or even a complement of passenger cars such as sleepers, diners, coaches, etc. at the rear.
Mixed passenger trains have a combination of freight cars and passenger-car-equipped cars. Typically, the freight cars were at the front and the passenger car(s) at the rear. Since the steam line was absent on the freight cars, the passenger cars had to have their own heating source. Of course, if/when the passenger cars were connected to a steam-line-equipped locomotive, they wouldn’t have to independently heated but a caboose would have been necessary at the train’s end. Such trains couldn’t go as fast as “all-passenger-equipped” trains when the freight cars didn’t have high-speed wheel sets.