On my swiching layout, I must back the train back to the yard, not a long distance, but accross two grade crossings. Is a caboose necessary at the “head” of the backing train or would a flagman suffice?
John C.
Mebane, NC
I’m not certain what era you are modeling, or whether or not it would affect that. I work for NJ Transit, and the rules in NORAC (Northeast Operating Rules Advisory Comittee) state this:
116. Operating Train from Other Than Leading End
When the Engineer operates the train from other than the leading end of the movement, a crew member must be stationed on the leading end of the movement to observe conditions ahead and take action to properly control the movement of the train. This crew member must be qualified on the physical characteristics of the territory involved. Hand signal, communicating signal or radio communication must be maintained with the Engineer. If signals from the crew member cannot be received by the Engineer, the movement must be stopped immediately. The crew member stationed on the leading end must be prepared to operate the engine whistle or horn, if available, as well as the emergency brake valve, should conditions require. The train must not exceed 30 MPH.
This rule does not apply when switching, making up trains in yards, or when the movement is preceded by a crew member.
I do believe that it depends on the location of the grade crossings, and whether or not the crossings are for “general public” use or only railroad employees.
Here are a couple rules that also apply a little more in context with your question:
138. Highway Crossing Warning
a. Activating/Reactivating Crossing Warning
The point at which automatic crossing warning is activated or reactivated may be designated in any of three manners:
- A sign or post lettered “CC.”
There would be a caboose in most cases since the shove must be protected and there are grade crossings that needs to be flagged.The brakeman or conductor would do the required flagging.A caboose also gives the switchmen a safe platform to ride on…That’s why locals and mine runs that require reverse moves has a caboose.
Hanging on the side of a car for any distance isn’t a feel good experience.
Sam,You would also have company rules govern such moves…One rule we had was if the grade crossing protection wasn’t working we could use a lot of horn and bell with restricted speed.
Quite right about having special instructions from the company… Unfortunately they also have rules governing the disclosure of company policies and information to non-employees, and harsh penalties for doing so… That is why I have provided the NORAC definitions and not NJ Transit special instructions… Just trying to answer his question without getting into trouble! These days you can’t be TOO careful… also unfortunate.
Sam,I had a CSX and NS employee time tables…Toss down by passing NS/CSX train crews shortly after the CR take split…I had a CR rule book as well.The day before the split one of the last CR crews through Crestline(Oh) gave it to me as a CR memento.
A switchman/flagman has to be in position to protect the shove. The presence of a caboose is not required, but may be used for the flagman/switchman to ride. If the crossings aren’t equipped with warning devices then the move will have to stop and the flagman protect the crossing.
Dave,Its not that cut and dry…
Again its govern by company rules and special instructions…There were crossings that needed flagged and others the sounding of the caboose whistle would suffice.Even the reverse move is govern by operating rules and speed restrictions.
Thanks for all the helpful info. I model the early 1960’s, in an urban setting. The shove usually involves about 5-7 cars and is about a scale mile or less but the engineer’s vision would be obstructed due to curve and structures. Looks like I’ll be adding a caboose! Perhaps I’ll build a transfer caboose. Thanks again.
John C.
When I was a switchman, a couple of the out and back industry jobs never used a caboose, although there was, and is, one available for that purpose. We routinely shoved a couple miles total, riding the side of a freight car. All the crossings involved had lights and gates. If they weren’t functioning, you would than stop and protect on the ground.
There are still jobs that don’t use the caboose that’s available. Other places where the shove is considerably longer they do use a caboose. Providing point protection on the leading end of the shove can be done whether one is on the caboose platform or the side of a freight car. Some of the jobs now, the trainman on the leading edge is not only protecting the shove, he’s operating the locomotive (RCO).
There’s no question that riding on the caboose is more comfortable than the side of a freight car. Our union rules require that a caboose be available for long shoves. If one wasn’t it is a penalty claim. It’s not required to use it, but if it’s your choice not to, there is no penalty involved.
I won’t dispute that there may be places where management and local rules may require all crews to use a caboose/shoving platform. But it’s also wrong to say that a caboose is always required for a shoving move.
Jeff
Jeff wrote:Our union rules require that a caboose be available for long shoves. If one wasn’t it is a penalty claim. It’s not required to use it, but if it’s your choice not to, there is no penalty involved.
Interesting…Thanks for sharing that tibit.[tup]
Since John stated he models the the early 1960’s a caboose would surely be needed…There was still 5(some times 6) men crews in that era.
Locally I have seen Commonwealth Railroad, part of Rail Link pushing Thrall 3 and 5 unit well cars being pushed by two MP15AC from the yard in Portsmouth, then into Suffolk where I live. The train was long enough to be crossing Shoulders Hill Road and Nansemond Parkway at the same time.
This sighting was in the last six months or so. So no caboose, the crossings are automatic, and no brakeman either. I have seen NS locomotives at the head end going in the opposite direction. Speed is very slow, but I would not want to be in the way of one.
Currently new track is being built from the Portsmouth docks out into Suffolk. A good distance of rail has been laid in the medium of I 164. An over pass was built to raise RT 17 to cross the new track.
In the 1960’s a caboose would generally be “automatic” anyway, it wouldn’t be until the eighties that trains without cabooses became common. You still had four man crews (engineer and fireman in the loco(s), conductor and brakeman in the caboose) back then, not two like now (i.e. engineer and conductor in the engine.)
Milwaukee Road passenger trains using their downtown Minneapolis station had to back up about 30 blocks to reach the station. IIRC they had a crewman in the observation car with a radio, although I’m not sure how they did it before radio, I think there was a connection to the brakeline in the car’s interior they could access. Some railroads had communication cords that went thru all the passenger cars, where the conductor could pull the cord to ring a bell in the engine cab to transfer signals as I recall.
Passenger trains in pre-Amtrak and pre-radio times typically made reverse movements with the conductor or flagman controling the air brakes from the rear car and signaling the engineer with an air whistle in the cab. Observation cars usually had a built-in brake valve, and for other cars there was a brake valve extension hose that coupled onto the rear end of the train line. For a photo of this, see page 69 of my book, The Model Railroader’s Guide to Passenger Equipment & Operation. The second air hose alongside the train line on all passenger train cars and passenger locomotives was the signal line that allowed trainmen to blow the cab air whistle using valves in the cars.
So long,
Andy