Anytime Miningman! That is kind of a sad sight though, that ALCO PA carcass on the way to joing the fraternity of Pi Kappa Scrappa.
Ever read Rush Loving’s “The Men Who Loved Trains?” The description of the upper echelons of the PRR during the lead-up to the merger with the NYC had me scratching my head in disbelief. Turf-wars, private fiefdoms with egos to match, all of them acting like members of the Order Of The Garter instead of professional railroaders. They all should have been thrown out! Just incredible!
Hence my “too proud to admit there’s another way” theory concerning the bunch.
In some books, PRR officials were described as arrogant and unfriendly by other RRs officials. I don’t have any solid evidence to confirm that but judging from how they execute the development plan of the duplex and their unrealistic optimism to Franklin, Baldwin and Alco’s early product, It is not hard to understand that it was Union Pacific and Santa Fe who survived much longer but not PRR or even the NYCentral. But as a Pannsy (non-die-hard) fans I get used to Pennsy’s management style every time I review their history, just like people get used of their wife or husband’s behavior. [C]
To a somewhat lesser degree - all that infighting still exists in today’s railroads. It exists in any large layered hierarchy - just look the governments of the world.
How do I explain it - PRR making a narrative with its financial statement against ICC regulations and other forms of governmental oversight. Sharp pencils create the story that the boss wants to present.
Who benefited the most from the PRR’s first loss as well as its demise which came afterward?
Would PRR, the largest RR in the world have survived if the government didn’t milk the RRs like cows?
Do you think all these RRs of Northeast could have done something to stop the government from building the highway and airport; people buying their own cars and trucks for various purposes; the traveler who takes the plane, traveling on the sky with the family or taking the bus for a cheap mid-distance trip?
If PRR purchased 76 N&W Class J instead of T1, how much longer do you think these engine would have served compared to the T1s and N&W’s steam engine?
“Who benefited from the PRR’s first loss as well as its demise…”
I can’t imagine who.
“Would the PRR have survived…if the government hadn’t milked the railroads like cows?”
Interesting question. Politicians milking businesses up North was one of the contributing factors that led to the “Rust Belt” phenomenon, which affected the PRR as well as a number of other 'roads. Not the only factor mind you, but an important one.
“Do you think all the RR’s in the Northeast could have done something…”
No.
“If the PRR had purchased 76 Class J’s…”
Ah, now we’re on to something. They certainly would have saved a hell of a lot of money by not developing something new and totally radical by PRR standards like the T-1. Whether they would have spent the money saved wisely is another matter.
How long they would have operated those Class J’s is anyone’s guess. Theoretically the Class J’s on the N&W could have been operated as late as 1965, maybe 1970, but then environmental laws coming into effect in the 1970’s would certainly have put an end to mainline steam for anything other than excursion purposes unless the steamers in use were given a “grandfather” type exemption, i.e. “OK, you can use them until they’re worn out and due for replacement, but no new ones!” Kind of like the “grandfather” exemptions the ICC gave to 'roads that used “Camelback” type locomotives.
Oh, I like that picture of the “Fleet of Modernism” train heading off into the sunset! It doesn’t matter if that sunset is literal or figural, it’s still cool!
They’ve done some good stuff on Pennsylvania Public Television. One classic is “Pennsyvania Diner,” but watching that one’ll make you hungry, trust me!
The N&W was primarily a coal conveyor and their steam was suited for the purpose. PRR’s efforts were primarily toward a general freight RR. I don’t see how N&W’s practices would have translated to PRR.
For a number of years, living in Baltimore and having my inlaws in Akron - the PA Turnpike was the normal route connecting the two - The Midway Service area was a frequent stop in both directions. My favorite was HoJo’s blueberry pancakes.
Now a days, with the toll robbery that PA has on the Turnpike, I travel I-68 & I-79 to get to I-77 - No Tolls - with the PA & OH Tolls being about $20 and only shortening the trip by about 10 minutes - it isn’t worth the tolls.
Thanks a lot, Wayne. The colors of the sunset was a perfect match with the FOM-Tuscan red plus maroon and golden strip. It was the best color scheme of Pennsy as well as Raymond Loewy’s work for railroading, but it barely lasted about 10 years. My favorite PRR FOM car was the heavyweight betterment Pullman sleeper:
Well, you have to realize that when Miningman and myself are talking about the PRR adopting N&W practices what we mean is this, and bear with me.
The PRR’s steam development essentially stopped in 1914, anything that came afterward was a variation on a basic theme. “Build 'em simple and build 'em reliable” was a good policy as long as everthing stayed static. But it didn’t.
N&W on the other hand was always looking for ways to improve steam performance and utilization, the R&D never stopped. Automatic lubrication, roller bearings, lightweight steel alloys, all were tested in turn and applied as soon as practical.
Then there were the N&W’s “Lubritoriums,” so designed that one of N&W’s modern state-of-the-art steamers could be serviced and back on the road in anywhere from 45 to 60 minutes. The PRR had nothing like them, as far as I know.
When the Pennsy started to look at steam design again they came up with the S-1, good but too big, the S-2 turbine, good in theory but bad in practice, and the T-1, good but just a little too late.
What the 'roads hauled was of little real consequence. The N&W was a coal pipeline to Tidewater, and probably got their coal fuel at a discount from the mining companies, but they hauled other things besides coal.
The PRR could have learned a lot from the N&W, but ignored them. The best tribute to N&W’s steam team probably came from the crew at Lima Locomotive Works, no slouches themselves when it came to steam design…
Oh, that was oh-so-cool, an “Art Deco Drag Race” between a T-1 and a Class J!
Of course, it never happened in real life, but given the postulated situation, that is straight-as-an-arrow trackage on a billiard table flat landscape, I’d have to put my money on the T-1. Pains me to say so as much as I love the Class J’s.
Reason being, the T-1 was designed for 100 mph (and faster) running and the J’s weren’t. Oh, the J’s could get up to 100 mph and faster, but they weren’t really designed for sustained running at that speed.
No matter, it was a fun video, although the T-1 “tailgating” the Class J’s train at the end has me a bit puzzled. Looks like it’s going to take a bite out of the obs car!
But we’re discussing a drag race, which is acceleration from a standing start over a relatively short fixed distance. Even assuming we leave low-speed slipping (an acknowledged T1 “characteristic”) out of this discussion, I think all authorities agree that the higher-wheel, shorter-stroke T1 would be at a substantial power disadvantage up to about 35mph (above which they were noted for strong acceleration up to the speed range where high-speed slipping might rear its head). Up to that speed at least the J can develop more practical drawbar pull and hence train acceleration, and continues to be no slouch thereafter; I’d have to wonder seriously whether the T1 would even start to gain back some of its lost differential until the trains had accelerated over the distance corresponding to a ‘made speed’ of over 40 to 45mph.
“Flying mile” timings once up to maximum achieved speed are another matter entirely, and I’d expect the T1 both to reach and to sustain (albeit for different reasons) speeds well over what the J could safely provide. Which isn’t really the point. It might be interesting to see what Voyce Glaze et al. might have produced if tasked to build an unlimited-speed road locomotive for a railroad that could use that capability.
Someone who has quick access to the drawbar pull/speed curves of the two locomotives could work up a comparison of the distance at which the locomotives would be ‘neck and neck’ again. Alas! I am no longer that person. (But it is interesting to consider that it may be possible to conduct an empirical test of the matter within a few years…)
Unfortunately I couldn’t go full-screen with the video, so I’m not sure if the data on the right side of the screen was giving any speed indications.
I’d have to agree, from a standing start the J would have had the advantage, but that video ran for 12 minutes on apparantly an endless section of trackage. Sooner or later the J would have to back off.
There was one time when a J was brought up to (I think) 115 mph on the “racetrack” between Petersburg and Norfolk. If I remember correctly it was done under observation and not for laughs, for lack of a better term. Eventually the crew felt “discretion is the better part of valor” and slowed it down.
Just because you can go like a bat out of hell doesn’t mean you should.
And I still can’t figure out why the T-1’s trying to bite the J’s train in the butt!
[:)]Glad to know you guys interested in my TrainZ simulator drag race video! The video I post was actually an extract from a 20 mins video which included the NYC Niagara but it probably glitched when I driving it on “realistic mode”. So I only show the part where the N&W Class J and PRR T1 6110 chasing each other. You guys may already notice that I slow down both train multiple times to fit the “plot”, so it was not a serious drag race! (at least the ending is funny…)
But I am gonna arrange a real drag race just for you guys. Both Class J and T1 will be hauling the same load and I will show you guys from their starting to reaching top speed. I will need to double check and confirm the figures in the engine config file are realistic and accurate first (the mass/volume of the cylinders, the size of the firebox, heating surface and the size of the boiler etc.) just like my PRR S1 : ) If I can fix the Niagara, she will be in the race as well. : )
This is a video showing my PRR S1 hauling the General + Trail Blazer combined consist on the level track. 1380 tons including the engine itself. She can reach 105 mph within 10 mins. I believe it is not 100% accurate but it shouldn’t be too far away from reality (if you watch it on YouTube, the full-screen function should be fine:
