This past weekend I picked up 2 more steam engines, A Proto 2K NKP Berk with mars light but no sound or dcc for $125 and a BLI PRR K4 which is diecast, full QSI Quantum sound/DCC. Being my wife is from Pennsylvania and we lived there for 8 years, I do have a fondness for the PRR, but I also love the NKP and thier mars light equipted Berkshires. From a modeling standpoint, NKP structures are pretty much the domain of scratchbuilding, something I am none to good at. There are some PRR buildings and towers out on the market in kit form. I am sure I could sell off my NKP Berks, might keep one to run at the local club layout, to finance a couple more PRR engines, Probably a I1sa Decapod and a M1a Mountain both with the modern front end styling. Layout will be very small, 4x8 with a 3x4 yard extension at the left front. Trying to keep 22" radius curves for the mainline and 18 elsewhere. With all the NKP engines I have now, 5 to be exact, I am just not sure what to do. I havent even started to build the benchwork yet, so there is plenty of time to change things.
Not the worst dilemma to have but my own feeling is that unless you model a PRR branch line, or an industrial district, it is awful hard to do the Pennsy justice in anything but a really big layout. That is why after decades of gathering together engines, cars, structure kits, and books and videos, I finally decided against modeling the Pennsy.
I am not saying the Nickle Plate was tiny by any means but it seems to me you can capture something of the essence of the NKP – a Berkshire charging across the flat farm fields with a fast freight – in a couple of generic scenes.
Not that this should influence your choice but regardless where you live you are more likely to be visited by a Pennsy nitpicker/rivet counter than by an NKP addict.
Dave Nelson
Not in my area, atleast 5 NKP layouts in the local area, we live in Kokomo, where 2 NKP districts cross(cloverleaf and IMC). The problem is I cannot model the NKP like I want in that space either, let along get buildings give the feel I want. But I can do some generic PRR looks, it also came thru Kokomo going from Chicago to Cincy. I have pics of K4’s and 6 axle BP20 sharks coming thru Kokomo thru the years. The track plan is double track, 22 outside and 18 inside dia radius track, so either main can handle the K4’s. The larger I1sa and M1a engines would be on the outer main. Definatly gonna have to sleep in it some. I would want 3 more PRR engines at least, I would want a second K4, the Decapod and Mountain. I would keep the Proto Berk and sell the other NKP power. Mike
Being a native Philadelphian, I am obviously going to choose the Pennsy for anyone’s railroad. You do not have to model the entire system in the space you have available. You can choose any number of sections of the Pennsylvania RR to model: the yards and shops in Altoona, urban scenery in Philadelphia, industrial sites in Pittsburgh, open farm country near Lancaster, etc.
There’s a lot of passenger and freight equipment available commercially, and plenty of structure kits that can be easily adapted to your period. Plus, I really like the gentler green mountains of the East versus the stark rocky stone formations of the West.
Using selective compression and focusing on a smaller section of the railroad’s territory should get you what you want.
Good luck.
PRR or NKP? Neither. Model the NYC! [:)]
Seriously, is there anywhere where the two RRs crossed one another? Or, passed close to one another? It would be kinda cool to be able to model them both. However, that may be a bit difficult to do on just a 4 x 8.
If given the choice…I would pick the NKP. With that said, the PRR Historical Society has quite the impressive array of reference materials and information available for the modeler on their web site. There also seems to be a plethora of rolling stock, too - particularly cabooses. Bowser is the PRR modeler’s friend.
Mike, what are you looking to accomplish with your layout? What are you wanting to model? Freight? Passenger? Are there any particular industries that interest you? Determining these will help you decide which RR would be the better choice to model for you.
Tom
Do both. Make most of your structures generic and have just a few removable ones specific to each railroad. Since your layout is small, it will be fairly easy to swap them as well as your engines/cabooses/passenger cars.
Enjoy
Paul
That was one of my ideas Paul, an layout that could be either, but I am planning on DCC and working signals, so that means position lights for the PRR and I wouldnt be changing the signals out all the time 
The PRR and NKP crossed here in Kokomo, but Berks never came up the IMC or the Cloverleaf thru Kokomo, the bridge loadings wouldnt taker thier weight. Just various Mikados and 2-8-0’s came thur here. Now the Pennsy it was a little of everything from I1sa Decapods, M1a Mountains, the K4’s and most kinds of diesels. That line is mostly gone now. The president of my local club can remember pacing K4’s and E units at around 100mph on his Harley Davidson motorcycle. There was a pic in the local paper a few weeks ago of a BP20 Sharknose stopped at the Kokomo passenger depot. That whole area where the yard and depot was, is just am empty field now, nothing remains but the main track thru that area.
With your givens, consider making NKP the primary railroad with a PRR junction, perhaps in a layout corner.
You can still run PRR equipment two ways:
[1] Your NKP can lease Pennsy K4s, Sharks, etc.
[2] Pennsy cars can always be a part of NKP freight consists.
[3] This idea will add slower planning and more research…
I hear your “looking for more space” and this may provide that space to model both NKP + PPR trackage.
You could model a 2-level 4’ x 8’ => and under the upper level => place a rear/2’ x 8’ easy-grade helix oval (the 22" & 18" radius fits), and; the front/2’ x 8’ lower level dedicated to staging and even extending over to the 3’ x 4’ section.
A 2-track helix is suggested with the outer-track for “up” (less pressure pulling on couplers) and inner-track for down. Easy-reach access, and lower level lighting are always considerations for two-level layouts.
The distance between decks could average apx. 18" if the lower staging has scenery, and even less if it has no scenery and dedicated only to fiddle-yard staging. If a more traditional “circular helix” could be placed under the 3’ x 4’ section => you could dedicate a lower level of 2 1/2’ x 8’ under the upper level.
Check out the two helix covers and other covers for ideas at PDF-Downloads.
- Three prototypes, other than the PRR, that have always had personal appeal are the Boston & Maine, the Reading, and the Nickel Plate => NKP has a lot of possibilities.
You could try to do both, which may be feasible depending where you set your layout. I ran into the same issue with a slight variance. I like the look and the “feel” of the PRR but I also have a strange attraction to the NYC. (Yeah yeah I know.)
I’ve decided to freelance a connecting branchline somewhere to somewhere that the PRR and NYC both used. Now I have to decide where to place that line. Currently leaning somewhere in the Crestline area of Ohio since the NYC and PRR both had major routes through there from what I can tell on maps I’ve looked at.
You are in luck. The PRR had trackage rights on the NKP for about 45 miles, from Buffalo to Brocton, NY. At Brocton, PRR branched off on its own track on a steep, winding climb up the lake Erie escarpment to Mayville, NY and onward to Oil City , PA… You would have seen a mix of PRR and NKP freight locos on the Nickel Plate line, but only NKP passenger service in later years. The interurban Jamestown Westfield and Northwestern Railroad crossed Pennsy at Mayville and NKP at Westfield, so you could realistically add trolley service to your layout if you want to.
Another possibility is Erie, PA which was served by both railroads. The PRR line ran from the waterfront southward and then southeasterly to Corry and beyond. I1s were plentiful there and so were K4s for the daily passenger runs to Emporium, where they joined the Buffalo line to Harrisburg. PRR passenger trains originated at Erie’s Union Station which was shared by NYC. NKP had its own station on 19th Street, a few blocks south of Union Station.
Both of the above PRR lines were steep and winding so they needed multiple helpers to get over the hills. Primary cargoes were petroleum products going north to Buffalo and general freight southbound. The Erie waterfront transloaded iron ore to move south and received coal from Pennsylvania mines. Lots of heavy trains.
Bottom line: no problem mixing PRR and NKP. And if you are so inclined you could throw NYC and Erie RR in there too. Have fun!
Edit: with a little research I found the NKP - PRR line to Buffalo was actually a double track line. NKP owned the southbound track while PRR owned the northbound rails. The railroads shared both tracks as one line. The latest PRR passenger service I could confirm on that line was in 1946, when you could ride between Buffalo and Pittsburgh overnight in about 9 hours and a few minutes. Incidentally, another train served Pittsburgh - Oil City, but did not venture north of OC.
We used to live in Erie, from 2000 thru 2008 when we moved back to Indiana, my wife grew up in Lake City/Girard. I am going to put the primary focus on the NKP with an interchange/trackage rights for the PRR. While I am not trying to replicate any certian area of the NKP, it will probably look more like the Indiana area were I grew up than the state of PA. I will incorperate an interlocker with the PRR so I can have a couple position light signals. I think some of the tripple and double light signals from South Bend Signal Co will work for the NKP style signals. I am going to sell off my 2 brass engines, probably pick up another Proto 2K Berk. I am going to get one of the diecast Trix Alco PA’s and have it repainted for the NKP, eventualy I will get a second one, although only one is really needed power wise to pull my passenger train. Cheers Mike
Definatly commited to the NKP now. I picked up a Trix diecast PA in UP, its off to the painter to be made into a Bluebird to match my Athearn unit, it will be the powered unit as the Athearn is a dummy. For pulling my string of Concor streamlined coaches, it will be plenty of power. I did sell off the PFM Berkshire, it was an early model with some dimensional issues that while alone it looked ok, but when put next to the Bachmann and Proto 2K Berks, it looked out of place. I will replace it with another Proto 2K Berk eventualy. Some friends came over on Thrusday and we did some brainstorming and sketching on paper of a few basic track ideas, I think we can make an around the wall layout, with removable sections infront of the china cabinet that I cant relocated and the closet door. We are going to make the door from the hallway a half door that will open under the benchwork. Its main purpose is to keep out dogs of of the room. It will be a single track main with passing siding and various industries along the route to switch. In one corner of the room there will be a large industry, not sure what yet, and in the other corner I will have a small engine facility with 3 stall round house accessed thru a 3 way turnout instead of a turntable that I lack space for. Just off the one leg of the 3way, I will put in an additional turnout and go over along the wall to a switch back, that will allow me to back an engine down a hidden steep grade down to the a shelf above my planned workbench area. This track will also be a DCC programing track with both rails insulated from the yard thru a DPDT toggle switch. The lead for the switch back will be long enough for a NKP Berksire.
Make up your mind which one you want to model, use that as a basis for structure selection, and grant trackage rights to the other. Since Pennsy was a far bigger railroad than Nickel Plate I would develop my track plan around them–they had multiple ways of getting practically anywhere they wanted to go and–with exceptions, of course–would not have needed granted trackage rights on the NKP. You can justify that S3 rolling along the Pennsy main by rationalizing that they are by-passing a derailment site.
R.T. if you read my last post, I decided to go with NKP for the focus, with an interchange to the PRR. Walthers has a built up station that is spot on for the Hobbs, Indiana rural passenger/freight station on the NKP line. Right now we are moving into the track plan phase and what we can actualy fit in my small room. Mike
hi,
since your space is only 4x8, probably without access from the back you are only able to build two very small scenes. With a 22" radius the only possibility is tracks along the edge of the layout.
BTW what is your yard used for? Storage, classification or blocking of trains or whatever?
It seems to me you bought engines cause you love them. A NKP birkshire or a K4 with a modest 20 car train in tow needs a way bigger footprint then a 8x4, way bigger radii too.
Your beloved engines will do fine in a cabinet, a small switcher in a shared industrial area might be doning fine in your space.
Paul
"PRR or NKP? Neither. Model the NYC! "
I 2nd that. [:D]
It really depends on what you want.
Do you want 4-track mainlines with 2-10-0 hippos helping 2-10-4 monsters and a 4-4-4-4 pulling the Broadway, or a 2-8-4 Berk hauling a fast frieght across farm fields of wheat and corn with Alco RS Switchers working the local industries?
Pennsy equipment is more readily avalible, but there is something cool about the Nickle Plate Road that the Pennsy just doesn’t have. If it were me, I would go with the NKP, but since I have lived in Pennsylvania my whole life, I have a soft spot for the Pennsylvania Railroad.