Reuters article about shipping interests starting to study reactivation of alternate means of navigation. eLoran is mentioned but there are other ones as well. Not familiar with the eLoran system but had very good results when standard Loran used for over water navigation. Had better results with digital Loran using auto track electronics in aircraft. Many fishermen also used it as well…
GPS based PTC could sink rapidly if the signals are spoofed. The US does interferrence tests about every other month at different locations usually along one of the coast military locations. Get aviation NOTAMS announcements whenever the tests are planned.
Our general public does not realize how dependent every day life depends on GPS. Credit car transactions are one big spot. Almost all gas stations use a GPS based system to authorize your charge. Can you imagine how many persons do not have a current road map in their cars ?
EDIT. Just received another centered at St. Marys, Ga, CSX and NS best check times for any PTC testing in Georgia, SC, Alabama, and Florida. See map ---- Map says just above ground level but ???
Travelling across USA this summer I relied exclusively on road maps…printed maps, in both book form, fold out and flip chart…much better than GPS, but then I’m set in my ways. Also much easier to “infer” the geology as USGS maps can be had at the same scale and showing all roads as well.
By stopping at rest stops and restuarants it is much easier than taking your eye off the road to read some screen or listen to some silly voice.
Also much easier to get the big picture, plan things and anticipate what is to come.
Guess I’m out of date, but not changing the way I do it.
My only complaint with current ‘user’ GPS is that it doesn’t react to road closed detours very well, always trying to take you back to the original route that is closed until you have traveled far enough for it to calculate an entirely different route to the selected destination.
Even the current dLoran proposals are not fully suitable for PTC; their resolution is around 5 meters at best, which won’t resolve track centers reliably. It does have adequate resolution to keep most trains from colliding, and the added penetrance of the RF signals used (MUCH higher ERP at different wavelength) has promise for anticollision and “civil” area safety systems, and approach to locations that can be given fixed beacons.
I am watching with some interest to see whether cost-effective differential solutions or an overlay in ‘necessary’ areas will give the necessary resolution for ‘GIS-driven construction’ or multitrack ‘absolute position’ PTC.
I do not think eLoran will have a counterpart to the GPS Z-axis (vertical height, as decoded) as the tower height is minimal compared to the effective range, and much of the research into new technology is in reducing the size of the emitting array. That becomes significant when you want a good differential signal as a baseline for things like semiautonomous drone operation in severe conditions, or an altitude ‘check’ to resolve conflicts on bridges and so forth, which represents a severe difficulty for a pure 2D (even spherical) geometry mapping system. I continue to think that overlays and metadata represent a reasonable solution to the whole basic class of problems, but that is far from a foolproof or robust system.
Note the tacit importance of a navigation system that can be completely shut down and Faraday-caged against the threat of EMP even from repeated exoatmospheric strikes, and then be brought up in a comparatively short time to reasonable efficiency.
Miningman, I am with you. I have never used a GPS; when I was traveling in new coutry,I alsways carried a printed map of each day’s travel, complete with printed directions.
Havent’t gotten a AAA ‘Trip-tik’ in over 30 years. Used to get them whenever I was traveling to a new area. Now, between the Interstate system and GPS one really doesn’t need maps to get to most places.
Now to get to some specific address that you have never heard of - GPS beats maps hands down.
Never had a problem getting to a specific address. I like counting the numbers and reading the signs and if you make a mistake it’s fun getting a bit lost. So what! You just see more and circle around.
Most folks use their GPS and think they are some kind of modern day genius. The only thing I use a satellite in my vehicle for is the radio.
When I’ve had enough of talk, I go to the 70’s, tired of that go to the 90’s, then British Invasion stuff, still like Howard Stern. Most of the time I listen to nothing, which is best.
Quick Q for you BaltACD- if you had not retired before EHH came on do you think you would still have your position, or in that location, or been forced out? Seems like a lot of good senior people are getting “fired” in droves. Would or could you have survived?
My office, Baltimore, will be in Jacksonville starting September 1, 2017. After 51.5 years including 26 in dispatching I had all the disrespect I cared to experience. Since a ‘two bit boss’ effectively stole my seniority in 2013, with the expectation that I would ‘bump’ another dispatcher he had a dislike for - I crossed him up and went to the extra list - stalled around for 3 years without getting ‘qualified’ on a particular desk as part of the requirements to become qualified is to have 20 uninterupted days training on the desk. My other qualifications never permitted me to have 20 uninterupted days. Plus the ‘two bit boss’ violated several rules in the ATDA agreement and I ended up getting about $50K in penalty payments for his transgressions. As a ATDA covered Dispatcher I would have to be fired for cause after the formal investigation procedure for some form of rules violation. Had is stayed in the non-contract employment path - I am certain I would have been ‘down sized’ 10 or 15 years ago. The time I decided to retire was MY decision, not the company’s.
At the time I retired I fully expected the offices to be recentralized - I just didn’t think it would be so soon. I am glad I got out when I did, my 401K got both the Trump Bump and the EHH Bump and I converted most of it into a stable interest account to minimize market fluctuations. RRB Check and my non-contract company pension show up in my account every 1st of the month.
My wife and a friend got a Trip-tik to drive from SD to NC last month. They still had to call me and ask directions somewhere in southern IN. I could go on-line and tell them where to turn based on landmarks found on Google maps. Her friend had an old school Garmin(sp?), varmit or whatever.
You still need a map, even with GPS. All GPS tells you is where you are on the surface of the earth, not where there are roads, bridges, etc. to get from where you are to someplace else. Maps provide that info.
As for TripTiks… Severla years ago, my Aunt asked me to drive her from Indiana to Florida and she provided the TripTiks for route directions. She was quite proud that they included detours for expected road construction areas. “It is all the latest maps and information.”, she bragged.
I had my laptop PC with me, plugged in (cigarette lighter to 120V inverter), and running DeLorme Street Atlas, but I let her tell we where to turn… she did NOT like the computer on the seat between us and kept putting a blanket over it and tucking it in around the sides (“I don’t like computers.” she mumbled).
I kept pulling it out from under the blanket so it would not over-heat!
Unfortunately the TripTiks missed a major problem in Nashville, Tenn. When we approached the place where we would switch interstates (I65 to I24) there was a BIG electronic sign that was alternately flashing, “BLASTING, expect LONG delays” and “Find another route”. We could see a long narrow “parking lot” ahead of us with pedestrians out wandering around the parked cars.
TripTiks only show intersections with MAJOR cross roads and no “parallel” routes. My Aunt was at a loss.
Perhaps there is a case generally for ‘out of date’ technology in certain circumstances. Old, ‘dumb’ technologies cannot be hacked unlike modern ‘smart’ ones.
An illustration of this is the reintroduction of old-fashioned typewriters for typing secret reports, as apparently the Kremlin and the Indian government have both done. To get hold of the contents of these reports would need labour-intensive, high-risk espionage of the traditional John Le Carre variety, rather than a nerd with a laptop in an office on the other side of the world.
In Nature simple organisms co-exist with complex ones, and indeed the evolutionary battle between things with no brains (bacteria, viruses) and things with very big, complex brains (i.e. us) is by no means over. Organisms with brains can suffer mental breakdowns and are vulnerable to software errors - things with no brains are immune to these threats.
For systems such as electricity networks or rail networks I wonder if it would be desirable to isolate, physically, electronic systems controlling the network from other electronic systems including of course the internet. This would introduce a certain amount of ‘dumbness’ but avoid the risk of ha
(1) Autonomous GPS will always have issues with positional accuracy which can be made worse by the position of the “birds” you are working with. Narrowing down the error of position the way PTC is trying to do will ALWAYS require testing with HARN station checks, etc. (nothing new on this with surveyors, we just throw out the “flyers” and move on. PTC on the other hand relies on no “flyers” in the system, thus the reliability checks.)
(2) Been discussed here, how some I-zombies’ total capitulation to GPS/GIS in their black box technology gets them in trouble, especially in crossing situations. Using the wrong technology for the wrong purpose gets you in trouble (garbage in = garbage out)…Blind faith in a man made/programmed system can get you in trouble deep. The GIS programmers are most certainly the weak link here.
(3) there have been two attempts by communications people to “steal” GPS bandwith for additional market share of voice/data/cell service capabilities. Much bigger issue than the original post’s concern.
Yes, but in part that was a specific result of NOT having reasonable electronic network control over devices and systems in the grid…
What he’s hinting at is a long-established discussion to at least try to keep SCADA-based systems and the like immunized against outside interference or hacking. The Stuxnet ‘experience’ showed the lengths to which some groups would go to cause catastrophic effects on industrial control systems. There have been ongoing discussions relating to the protection of medical systems with inherently ‘network-enabled’ device configuration and programming.
On the railroad side, I think the security discussions for the specific internetworking involved in PTC have been extensive, and specific issues of isolation, different standards, and obfuscation have certainly been discussed.
But the several day 2003 blackout was in the day of the internet, and that raises questions.
I do not profess to have the answers because I have not researched whether or not the utilities involved were using the net for communications between them or if they had a private network set up between them both for communications and monitoring the grid.
In my opinion, reliable electric service is necessary in this day and age and should include both data and electric service backups. Major data centers, including banks and other financial institutions are dependent on having both a power source, hence huge standby power generators and an off-site backup, again with emergency generators, are major considerations. (That from a friend who’s company specializes in building those data centers.)
Wouldn’t it make sense for something as important to our way of life in the Twenty First Century for the major utilities to have their own dedicated (and protected from the outside) to the best state that current technology can achieve?
Even a regional grocery store chain had protection against loss of grid power at all of their stores and during the 2003 blackout suffered no loss of refrigerated or frozen products.
Our local electricity provider seems to have more problems after a storm than does the one to the west and north of us. The latter build to a higher standard and make sure trees that could affect power lines are trimmed more frequently. An outage map of my state is enlightening.
GPS is used as a timing source for cell phones and data networks. Issues with timestamping of stock trades could cause some serious problems.
The EU, China and India have launched or are planning to launch their own GPS systems.Most newer cell phones can use these networks if enabled by the carrier.
Good going Balt. You played it well. If management, would play by the book they wrote, things would be so much better. But some have to throw their weight around because they can and sometimes, the company has to pay for it. Makes it tough on some employees who want to do a good job. Glad you are enjoying retirement.
Well my classroom is state of the art computer lab technology. All new, constantly updated. Each student has 2 large monitors and I have the same plus 2 huge TV’s facing them, most classrooms mounted in the corners but mine are on a rolling platform by request, so I can roll’em away. I can project anything required onto their monitors or they can plot with installed AutoCAD, Vulcan, GemCom. ArcGIS, plus receive visual and print aids during a lecture… or, problematically, goof off and play on Facebook, (there are some controls and limits). So it’s not like I’m a yesterdays man or any kind of Luddite. Far from it.
However…when travelling thousands of miles across 2 countries and taking mostly secondary routes at that, I want my paper maps exclusively in as many reasonable formats as possible, 90year old Grandma’s and laptops notwithstanding. Geological Survey (USGS) maps as well, some topographic maps for key areas of interest, but thats just me.
With all the talk of driverless vehicles in the future I foresee a time when this kind of serendipitous trip may be almost impossible to do. Nothing but plastic money that would further limit you and raise questions as to why? And what is the purpose? There is a very dark side. Tracking you in many ways, making your business their business. Hope we can overcome that somehow, but it looms. Worse yet, following generations may be welcoming to these limitations. Brave New World indeed. Feudalism the goal? On the horizon?
Now the only new thing and conflict I have experienced is taking along my iPad. Of course a person is going to take along their smart phone as well. You see I’m writing this now on the forum, and have been following and contributing all along, whereas I should be “out there” talking to people and exploring things more than I do. That part is “new”. Have done it before but net connections these days are far more widespread and “automatic”.