Public meeting regarding Kenosha-Milwaukee trains

Trains Magazine General Discussion
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RACINE - While the possibility of a commuter rail connecting Kenosha and nearby communities with Milwaukee is still at least three years away, supporters of the program gave a hard push for it to a packed audience Wednesday evening in Racine.

If it’s done right, communities such as Kenosha, Somers and Racine will see improved property values, more jobs, higher wages and less overall out-of-pocket transportation costs, said Shelley Poticha, president of the national Reconnecting America and the Center for Transit-Oriented Development.

But, she said, it won’t come without a cost.

“If you are willing to pay a little more, you’ll gain huge benefits and a huge payback,” she said.

Wednesday’s event was sponsored by the SC Johnson Co. and Transit Now, and featured Poticha’s statistics and slides from cities across America that have made a positive difference with a rail line. In many of those cities, commuter rail exceeded rider expectations years ahead of projection.

While there is an initial cost with a possible tax increase, she said statistics show many community members who use the rail save 10 percent more of their household income.

If all goes according to plan, the rail system would connect the Chicago Metra line that currently ends in Kenosha to Milwaukee, with stops in Somers, Racine, Caledonia, Oak Creek, South Milwaukee, Cudahy-St. Francis, Milwaukee south side and downtown Milwaukee. It will be 33 miles long with 14 daily round trips during the weekday and several weekend round trips, with fares similar to bus lines. Proponents say it also will give access to nearly 1 million existing jobs between Milwaukee and Chicago and add hundreds of thousands of other jobs.

“I’m all for it,” said Dave Moresi, a Pleasant Prairie resident who attended the presentation. "Some people where I live might not like me saying this, but I’d like to see a station right at 91st Street so I could wa

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SOOOOooo, if people wanted to travel from Chicago (Evanston, Highland Park, Waukegan etc.) to Milwaukee via the old C&NW route, would they have to take a Metra-funded UP-North Line train north to Kenosha, then change to a similar commuter route run by the State of Wisconsin?

al-in-chgo

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Here’s the other kicker that I don’t understand. Doesn’t Amtrak already offer service to these areas through the Hiawatha trains? So if I am to understand the logic correctly, the taxpayers are to swallow another tax increase (notice how it was poo-pooed in the article) for additional trains in an area that already has taxpayer funded passenger rail. If the demand is there (and it isn’t - I only read wild and unsubstantiated speculation about how this would spur economic development - in other words, if you build it they will come) then why not increase the use of Amtrak instead of serving cross-purposes? This corridor between Milwuakee and Chicago is one of the few that Amtrak has that actually generates a profit. Why not encourage the existing service (which taxpayers are already funding) instead of creating an entirely new service that will only undercut the existing passenger rail?

Not only that, the rationale that because Chicago and Atlanta have a intercity passenger rail service Milwaukee should have one too doesn’t wash either. Chicago is a big city, so is Atlanta and Seattle. Milwaukee is not. In fact, Milwaukee is rather medium sized compared to most American cities. And the way things are going here we are just turning into a suburb of Chicago anyway.

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The supposed logic behind all of this is that the old CNW line goes through the highest population density areas, instead of the relatively under-populated areas of Caledonia, Sturtevant, and Somers The track needs a lot of work ($$$) to bring it up to passenger speeds, the signal system is long gone, and it is only single track.

I’ve said it before: this is the silliest idea I have heard in a long time. As much as I would like to see trains running there again, it just does not make fiscal sense. There MIGHT be sufficient patronage to extend from Kenosha to Racine, but why go to Milwaukee? Or perhaps Amtrak should open a station in Kenosha (Truesdel, hwy 50) or maybe in at the state line. How about a nice bus service from Milwaukee connecting to the trains in either Kenosha or Racine? As solz pointed out, the Hiawatha’s already serve the Chicago/Milwaukee travellers.

Although, considering how many southbound cars I see on I-94 at 5am every morning between Some

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If I’m reading the prior postings correctly, they are assuming that the Kenosha-Milwaukee service would be an extension of the existing North Line service from Chicago. The initial posting seems to suggest that this proposal would be oriented from Kenosha to Milwaukee, making Kenosha an endpoint between two suburban services, similar to Trenton, NJ (NJT and SEPTA) and Oceanside CA (Metrolink and Coaster).

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I picture this route as being very local. Not being in competition with Amtrak.

I think the key paragraph of the article was the one describing the importance of weaving commuter rail into the fabric of the area. For instance, employers providing fares as an employee benefit. Auto parking fees aren’t cheap. Marketing in the purist sense of its definition is what’s been missing so often when it comes to public transportation.

Maybe this would be a good opportunity for Colorado Railcar.

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Well, Wisconsin residents, are you willing to pay for this service? Amtrak will not add a train without a lot of state funds from the state(s) involved. The concept of returning passenger service to the old C&NW has merit, but UP runs it now, and there will be a fight and a half over finding a window in which the Amtrak train would be able to operate without interference from UP’s freights. There aren’t that many, but as we have seen UP and Amtrak are not the best of friends, right now.

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The proposed service will have little or no impact on the Amtrak Hiawatha service. The latter is run on the CP, it is designed to provide fast service between Milwaukee and Chicago and because the route runs somewhat to the west of the Wisconsin communities, it would not be well suited to serving commuters from those towns to Milwaukee and environs.

The proposed service is more likely to be used by commuters going north from the state line and points north to Milwaukee and suburbs.

Some or perhaps most of the state funding is likly to come from sales taxes. Sales in the involved counties are already subject to “extra” sales tax to finance Miller Park, the stadium for the Milwaukee Brewers. We shop in that area, so I already pay an extra sales tax. I would have no more use for the extended commuter service than I now have for Miller Park, but I sure am not going to make a fuss about the prospect of paying a few more dollars to keep some cars off the highways.

No doubt, a majority of the other forum members from Wisconsin will not agree with my view on the tax thing.

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I would be all for a (slight) tax increase if the trains would make any appreciable difference in traffic; however, I do not see that as being the case.

I do know that during the 80’s Metra kept tryng to take the trains out of Kenosha. The only thing which kept them there was an already-built coach yard. Metra considered using the south end of the yard at Waukegan (with all the expense of running the electrical and water hookups), but the additional expense of putting in crossovers north of Winthrop Harbour (so the trains deadheading north from Waukegan could return south) was deemed prohibitive.

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I’m thinking the way CSSHEGEWISCG does: each state would have its own commuter line: Metra’s already-established Chicago - Kenosha service, which hopefully would transfer relatively easily onto one that runs from Kenosha up to Milwaukee and presumably would be funded by Wisconsin or, if their law permits, perhaps a separate taxing agency (you may recall that gasoline is a little more expensive in the “six-county area” specifically to subsidize all forms of local mass transit).

I don’t think such a link-up would in any way threaten or cannibalize existing Amtrak Hiawatha service to Milwaukee from Chicago. There are only a few stops in between, and they are useful to add passengers, including Milwaukee’s airport and a new depot at Sturtevant WI (near Racine). Is it likely that Amtrak would insist on getting involved if a new Chicago-Milwaukee service on a “new” route were planned, which in essence would hark back to the days when the C&NW operated long-distance as well as commuter service? I mean, it’s do-able Under such a set up, probable stops along the way would be Evanston-Davis, Highland Park, Waukegan, Kenosha and/or Racine. [I do not know if it is possible to route passenger traffic over to Mitchell (Milwaukee’s airport); but that would certainly be a sweetener.] But since that is city hub to city hub, a parallel route to what already exists, wouldn’t Amtra

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The only way Amtrak would touch it is with a whole lot of state funding, otherwise they would just leave it as a commuter operation. Also unless a whole lot of money got dumped on the UP north line, a Chicago-Milwaukee train on the CNW would be a LONG trip. Metra’s fastest schedule right now to Kenosha is 85 min from Chicago. Amtrak does the whole Chicago-Milwaukee trip in 94 min.

Bert

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I’m sure you’re right, Bert. Amtrak wouldn’t want to run such a line; ironically, though, I suspect there are other routes Amtrak defines as “inter-city” and demands a subsidy. (The prerogative of a monopoly, I guess. [B)] )

al

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Um…yeah that’s a big ten-four on the tax thing. Metra service will not reduce traffic on the freeway, and it will eat in to Amtrak’s Hiawatha service. The distance between the UP line and the CP Rail line is a matter of a few miles. In fact, after crossing the CP line (I know this fr

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I agree that this is one example out of many where measuring three times and cutting once would have been called for. This line is one of the slowest routes on the menu already, the snail’s pace trains stop every couple of miles in the densely packed north shore suburbs, which makes a milk run seem like the “400.” I avoided it like the plague.You might as well take a bus. To completely ignore one of the historically fastest routes which is already served by Amtrak is beyond comprehension and then turn around and rehabilitate a line that is a shambles…priceless stupidity on an epic scale. You would be better off buying them all mopeds and advising them to take Rt 41.

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One rail line, two agencies (Illinois RTA & Wisconsin DOT?) is my understanding.

Quote by Zardoz:

Kenosha to Racine might be the first step. Remember, the station in downtown Racine was just rebuilt. I see this service happening in the near future. Even if the Kenosha to Milwaukee extension isn’t needed today, transportation planners have to look into a crystal ball and try to predict what will be needed twenty years from now. Service would start slowly and then build up. Capacity and other improvemnts would be added as needed. Sound familar? Think Metra North Central (Wisconsin Central) Service. Also, it’s not the style of Metra to have a connecting point (Kenosha) where passengers are forced to transfer. A few express trains would depart Milwaukee in the morning making all local stops until either Kenosha or Waukegan where passengers could transfer to a local and then the Milwaukee Express would run express to Evanston and finally Chicago. Throw in a mid-day local and maybe a reverse commute at night.

Also, keep in mind what can happen to a town when they get commuter service. Just because there doesn’t appear to be a market where there isn’t commuter rail service doesn’t mean that there won’t be a market after the commuter rail start-up. Keep an eye on Elburn, IL. Today a farmers field, tomorrow a subdivision of townhomes.

CC

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Best solution: bring back the North Shore. That railroad was way ahead of it’s time (2 hours Chicago to Milwaukee making 15 stops). If the Electroliners were still running, they’d have all the business they could want. http://www.northshoreline.com/

Yes, I know that a large percentage of the right-of-way has been converted to other uses, but one can dream…anyway, there’s always Eminent Domain.

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Amen to the sentiments regarding the late, great North Shore-those timings were impressive in the light of street running all the way to the South side of Milwaukee and running on the L. I had mentioned this in an earlier post but when you hit the Skokie Valley Route from the Green bay Junction-you could feel the acceleration from those traction motors pushing your back into your seat. There is a scene in a tape I have of two guys pacing one of those trains, he mentions he’s going at 80 mph and just as he says this, the several car train accelerates out of camera view…

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I think the NSL was in it’s correct time … The OPEC oil crisis was 10 years too late . The same can be said about Milwaukee’s “other” system, let there be no doubt that Milwaukee once had a taste of REAL rapid transit !!!

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Trains stopping at Evanston (two stations) Winetka, Glencoe, Highland Park, Lake Forest, Great Lakes, Waukegan, and all those additional stops Kenosha to Milwaukee are NOT going to take business away from Amtrak’s Hiawatha service. Not anyway whatsoever. And if such a commuter service were superimposed on the Amtrak line, some capacity expansion probably would be necessary, and expensive, anyway. I do agree the old Northwester service is slow, not perhas as slow as the ex-Rock service south of the Loop, but certainly not as fast as some of the other Metra services. I think the return of the North Shore is a darn good idea and could be accomplished most easily by electrifying the old Northwestern Line, which does serve pretty much the same territory as the old CNS&M Shore Line. Actually at one point the C&NW considered doing this, but then Mayor Daly was opposed to wires and even suggested that he was worried about kids climbing on cars and contacting the wire! We hope someday to see a 90 minute Chicago - Milwaukee service on Amtrak, and then the electric suburban METRA service should be able to schedule and electric all-stops local at about 140 minuts with some rush hour skip stop trains making it in an even two hours. And money can be saved by running the line on rapid transit principles, with high platforms, prepayment with ticket machines, roving inspectors, etc. The equipment could possibly duplicate that on the existing Metra-Electric operation. Electric operation really shines in stop and go service.

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Ah, yes…the good old TMER&L.

FWIW-
I do not remember where I read it, but I believe I-94 between Milwaukee and Kenosha is scheduled to be rennovated within a few years, with a 4th lane to be added at that time. I would venture a guess that during that construction, the Chicago-Milwaukee commute will be an agonizing one. And when it is done, the road will be merely adequate, barely able to handle all of the projected traffic levels.

What a perfect opportunity for the mass transit companies to lure riders out of their cars.

For more info: http://www.sewrpc.org/KRMonline/ (scroll down to the section regarding rail projects)

Also read about the plans for the Waukesha hwy 18/CN crossing to be made into an over or underpass. http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/us18study/cnindex.htm