Seems there has been a number of brass locomotive questions posed on the forum recently. Well…here’s another one for you brass experts:
How would you rank the different brass manufacturers on the quality and accuracy of their product?
How well do they run?
If applicable, are their rolling stock/structure offerings better, worse, or the same as their locomotives?
I have no brass buying experience other than my Bach bass trombone. From my observations, Key Imports offerings seem to always be right up there at the top. A couple of years ago I also saw a few Division Point models at a local train show and they were just drop-dead gorgeous.
Thanks ahead of time for your opines. I hope this thread will prove to be useful for others, as well.
Tom
[EDIT: I realize that some brass items have been around for a while and that the quality of each piece might sometimes be contingent on its actual age. Even so, your experiences with each brass item - whether those items be brand new or from the 60s - and it’s quality and detail (or lack thereof) is what I’m after here. And given that quality can change for the better or for the worse over time for a given product, the mention of the approx. age or production date has been and is helpful. [:)]]
I have had experience with only one brass locomotive, so my comments should not be considered authoritative at all.
A few years ago a woman brought an HO scale brass steam locomotive to our club that she was wanting to sell. She said her father had bought it when he was in Japan with the U.S. Army occupation forces. It was, if I recall correctly, a GEM model.
When I opened up the box, I saw that many detail parts had fallen off and the boiler solder joints were separating because the model had apparently not been properly soldered or a very inferior quality of solder had been used.
It ran, but I was not interested in purchasing it due to the deterioration of the solder and the likelihood of being unable to find someone who could rebuild it.
It was a very nice looking model with exquisite detail. The answer to your question, though, is going to depend a lot on the time frame of manufacture and country of origin, and has too many variables. Something like asking for a comparison between the quality of a 1934 Mercedes and a 1989 Rolls Royce.
A timely post Tom. Considering my newbie status I am also gazing at brass of all sorts, not quite sure where to start. If I may, Accessibility to/customer service from, the company, is another question I would like to ask. I have been interested in a couple of bridges and engines but have been very frustrated trying to get more info on a product.
I have little hands-on experience with brass, but I think looking around at train shows and eBay has given me a pretty good idea of what’s great and what’s not so great. I’ve also noticed that many started out with models that were maybe ok, or even pretty bad, but then got way better with time.
I have a Samhongsa PRR 4-4-0 from around 1980, which has amazing detail and the smoothest steam engine drive I’ve ever seen. It’s not quite as detailed as the absolute top-end brass, but it’s still excellent![:D]
My other brass engine is a Tenshodo GP20 from around 1970 or so (I’m not sure). It leaves a lot to be desired in the detail department, and has a drive that’s like a cross between a Hobbytown and an Alco Models diesel. After some fine tuning and a new motor, it’s a very smooth runner, but I’ll be repainting it and adding at least some better handrails to make it look better. The Tenshodo brass I’ve seen from probably after the mid-70s looks pretty amazing.
Well I’m no brass expert for sure but I do own about 8 different PRR brass steamers from various different importers. My thoughts:
4-6-2, 2-8-2, 2-10-0 from United (imported by PFM 70’s era) Good overall detail, excellent mechanisms and solid runners. All the United engines are my best runners and they are very forgiving of track not being absolutely flawless.
2-8-0 H6sb by Lambert Associates. Excellent. excellent little engine. Beautiful detail has a can motor, and can crawl down the track. Just a jewel.
2-8-0 H10 imported by Sunset. Great detail and a solid runner. Nice and quiet. I believe this one has a can motor too.
2-10-4 J1 by Westside. Beautiful engine detail wise. Mechanism works good. Open frame motor. Front pony trucks have a weird design with a spring connecting from the screw where it pivots to the front underside of the truck. Not sure what this is supposed to do. Rear truck is large and a total pain. It shorts out constantly because it seems to always be touching some part of the shell. Locomotive is very tempermental of track, thus I use it to test my trackwork. If this thing will run on it, anything will.
I have an Alco N2sa that is in pieces right now. Not sure how it runs but the detail seems nice. BTW, I totally messed up the drivers on this trying to put a new worm gear on. The drivers were not brass but some sort of pot metal. I bought a full set of new brass drivers from Greenway but the segmented rods may not be exactly the right fit and the mechanism binds badly. Even before I install the valve gear. Anyone that can help with finding the actual drivers for this loco, drop me a line, otherwise I may have to ebay it as part only. Sorry for going off topic a little.
I can give you some thoughts on my experience with brass locos, both new and old:
Akane: Not up to the detail of modern brass, but very sturdy mechanisms, and a superior, very long-lasting drive train for their time. In fact, the Akanes I have have taken extremely well to re-motoring with NWSL’s as their open frame motors go past prime. VERY solidly built and weighted–the’re almost the brass steam equivalent to a Sherman Tank, LOL! And if you want additional detail–well, Cal-Scale and PSC offer brass detail parts that can make all the difference in the world.
PFM: The various PFM locos I have are well detailed for their age (mostly '60’s and '70’s eras) with good drive mechanisms and excellent gearboxes. My only complaint is that their articulated locos have an exposed reduction gear, which makes it difficult to re-motor. But they’re fine runners.
Sunset: Varying quality. I’ve got two Sunset locos, and though the detail is beautiful, the locos have had to be re-weighted and re-balanced. However they’ve turned into smooth runners with some work. I understand that the latest Sunset offerings are excellent runners right out of the box, however.
Key: Most of my Rio Grande non-articulated steam power is from Key, and they’re beautifully detailed, smooth running and very well balanced. These are locos from the 1980’s for the most part. I understand that the newer Key locos are of the same high quality (and a substantially higher price, LOL!).
PSC: I’ve only got one PSC, but it’s like having a Rolls-Royce. Remarkable detail, beautiful balance and weight and a marvelous runner AND puller. It’s a Rio Grande 2-10-2, and I couldn’t be happier with it. And like most brass, the almost 'to s
I can give you some thoughts on my experience with brass locos, both new and old:
Akane: Not up to the detail of modern brass, but very sturdy mechanisms, and a superior, very long-lasting drive train for their time. In fact, the Akanes I have have taken extremely well to re-motoring with NWSL’s as their open frame motors go past prime. VERY solidly built and weighted–the’re almost the brass steam equivalent to a Sherman Tank, LOL! And if you want additional detail–well, Cal-Scale and PSC offer brass detail parts that can make all the difference in the world.
PFM: The various PFM locos I have are well detailed for their age (mostly '60’s and '70’s eras) with good drive mechanisms and excellent gearboxes. My only complaint is that their articulated locos have an exposed reduction gear, which makes it difficult to re-motor. But they’re fine runners.
Sunset: Varying quality. I’ve got two Sunset locos, and though the detail is beautiful, the locos have had to be re-weighted and re-balanced. However they’ve turned into smooth runners with some work. I understand that the latest Sunset offerings are excellent runners right out of the box, however.
Key: Most of my Rio Grande non-articulated steam power is from Key, and they’re beautifully detailed, smooth running and very well balanced. These are locos from the 1980’s for the most part. I understand that the newer Key locos are of the same high quality (and a substantially higher price, LOL!).
PSC: I’ve only got one PSC, but it’s like having a Rolls-Royce. Remarkable detail, beautiful balance and weight and a marvelous runner AND puller. It’s a Rio Grande 2-10-2, and I couldn’t be happier with it. And like most brass, the almost ‘to scale’ tolerances restrict this loco to at least a 30" or greater radius.
I only have 2 brass locos - both are HOn3 very low-end brass purchased in the last couple of years. Both are awaiting my track laying for their test runs in stock condition on the Port Orford & Elk River Railway & Navigation Co.
#1 Ken Kidder Porter 0-4-0T (outside frame). Supposedly a model of a Japanese prototype made by Porter. Almost no detail, just a plain brass body with rectangular side tanks. From photos I have seen, almost all 19th Century tank locomotives had saddle tanks, not rectangular. Supposedly can beat an Athearn Hustler in a drag race. Definitely a project - will likely become a free-lance, remotored, regeared 2-4-2T or 0-4-2T with total costs triple what I paid for it. Brass drivers need nickel plating or substituting.
#5 FED 1880s Baldwin 2-6-0, obtained in pretty close to mint condition with some extra parts. Again, minimal detail. Tender drive. Bought the Locodoc remotor kit on advice and recommendation of Yahoo HOn3 group. It’s supposed to be an excellent runner after the remotor. Am also going through the PSC catalog for add-on details. I do like the FED better than the Ken Kidder Porter Mogul I had considered. The FED has nickel plated drivers and much better looking crankpins, but the Kidder has the motor in the cab instead of the tender. Depending on how the project goes and whether PSC/MMI ever makes their Baldwin 18-8 4-4-0, this effort may lead to purchase and revamp of an FED 4-4-0 to complete the rod engine roster (#3).
just my thoughts
Fred W
…modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it’s always 1900…
Reading a few of the above posts, it seems some people have the same problem I have, that being the difference of the manufacturer and the distributor, eg: A United locomotive distributed by PFM, now did the distributor ever sell any other brand of manufactured locomotives? ? so - - could a company (distributor) sell both United and Akane, or was this never done, and am I right that manufacturers were Asian and distributors were American, this is a simplified explanation(hope it’s correct)
OMI: Absolutely the best out there. The detailing is far above anyone. But on a scale from 1 -10 I would only give there running time a 7. Some of there stuff runs on, but OMI makes a lot of display brass. meaning they are the most detailed brass models but are mainly built for display only.
SUNSET: Very good details and I would give there running time an 8.5. Of the many brass steam & diesel models from Sunset I find there track time to be fantastic.
KEY: Wouldn’t buy anything from them. IMO junk
ALCO: Same as Key.
CHALLENGER: Makes some very nice models, there steam is better then there diesel.
TENSHODO: Also makes a nice model with better details then Challenger, also a good runner.
SOHO: Wouldn’t waste my time on.
PFM: Made some good models also, but I feel fell way short on details.
PFM imported models by United, Fuji, Toby, Tenshodo and at the end a few by Samhongsa. They probably imported from some other companies also but I am trying to do an overview, not an exhaustive review.
Gem was an importer that used Olympia and Akane as a builder.
AHM imported a few brass models including a J1 PRR. These were built by KTM if I remember correctly.
NWSL inported various brass models over the years, some by Fuji and others by other builders in Japan.
Westside imported many models mostly by KTM until the end of their life cycle and a few Samhongsa built models were imported.
Balboa was the pre Westside and imported from KTM.
Max Gray was pre Balboa and imported from KTM.
LMB also imported from KTM early on.
ALCO models imported many different engines but I am not a fan of their production for the most part. They did use KTM some but their drawings are not what I would consider top notch.
Up to date, Overland uses Ajin as a builder. Division Point is using Boo-Rim. PSC is not using Boo-Rim but used some lesser companies in the 1990’s era that were sub par in running qualities. Key is using the Samtech group. W&R is using Boo-Rim for the latest and greatest and most expensive every models. Global Outlet used Samtech before they went out of business about two years ago. Challenger Imports used Samhongsa before they went out of business about three years ago. There are some more upstarts recently and it will be interesting to review how they are doing in the future.
Sunset is importing several nice brass models with QSI sound installed. I have purchased two of those and they run good and sound decent overall. They just say made in Korea on the box with no other name to identify the builder there. The NP Z6 is coming from Sunset and we will see how
I wouldnt tank Key all together, they have done some good pieces along with some duds. Since I am a operator and not a collector, thus handle my models, transport them to the local club layout each week, I tend to run the older models with a bit less detail. They also are less expensive and still run well. I normaly confine my purchases to models imported by PFM. This includes both United and Tenshodo models. Right now I have an early run PFM/United NKP Berkshire thats been redetailed and painted for the Polar Express, PFM/Tenshodo SD9 factory painted for Great Northern, runs excellent with an helix humper motor in it, Alco/KMT SW1500 painted in GN Empire Builder, and an old Lindsey cast brass NW2 thats unpainted. All run excellent with a little tinkering, cleaning and polishing wheels. For the average operator that wants a brass steam engine, but doesnt have a deep wallet, PFM/United or PFM/Tenshodo models cannot be beat. They operate well, even with open frame motors, take well to new can motors, and the gear boxes were well designed. Thier articulated engines use an open spur gear reduction set up that while smooth is very noisy. My old Berkshire draws well under 1 amp with its late 50’s or early 60’s era Pittman motor in it. And thats hauling a 6 car heavyweight passenger train. While not as detailed as later runs or even the new Proto version, I am betting she will still be polishing the rails when my kids are my age or older. Who knows with this new fangled electronic packed, diecast stuff from china.
The Tenshodo’s were imported by PFM except for the 1993 run which was a twin motored model that Tenshodo offered after PFM stopped importing.
I like the Overland models and have many of them, but Ajin has not done a great job on the articulated models for my money.
ALCO is less than great for sure, but they imported some models that can be worked on and are a bargain.
Custom Brass was sort of in that same category.
SOHO imported the Standard and Veranda Tubines built by KTM that ran very well. Not as detailed as the Overland models, but looked excellent painted.
It is hard to look back on fifty years of brass imports and compare the first examples to the models we have today without having been there. They were the best at that time and when I first purchased a PFM NKP Berkshire in 1968, it was state of the art. That certainly is not true after PSC, Division Point and the second run of the P2k models came out. I still have that first PFM model and six others of the new category and all of them are interesting models.
The real bargains are the older models if you are running them on a layout as Tom does with his Akane’s and early KTM models. I don’t believe you could wear them out on a home layout. Maybe the layout in Chicago at the Museum would give them fits, but that is exception.
We have had various reports by a lot of people and I feel that CalZepher and TWhite are the best, but there are a few problems to be dealt with.
OMI - Early runs were made by I don’t know who, but they came with bad gearboxes, bad motors, cold solder joints etc. One of my custom painter friends did the ACL R-1 4-8-4 for a person and spent 10 hours just resoldering joints etc. Before buying any OMI stuff check if it was built by Ajin or not.
Samhongsa built for a lot of people including Gem, Alco, PFM, Westside, Key and Sunset. Their first engines were similar to the early OMI engines, but they were also made with a too small can motor that overheated quickly. Among those engines were the N&W K3 4-8-2’s SP D-1’s and B&O Q4b’s (I know I have all three).
One not mentioned was Hallmark, their principal steam builder was Dong-Jin who also did a lot of Custom Brass’ steam engines. Same problem, bad gear boxes, bad motors, cold solder joints. As a matter of fact one of my engines came with a Tyco motor in it. Some of their engines were good and some were total trash.
Nickle Plate Products were mostly made by KTM or KMT, can never remember which, but they were good solid locomotives similar to Akane and United. KTM also built for Westside.
Key also used Micro Cast Mizuno for some of their engines, these are the Cadillacs of the Steam World. I have a NYC 20th Century Ltd. J3a - Dreyfuss with Scullin disc drivers and it is awesome considering it is 25 years old and compaared with the new stuff.
This was a period when the importers were trying to be the first with a given locomotive so we had competing PRR T1’s S2’s Niagras etc.
Very true, brass has been around so long, its hard to compare vintage models against the muesum quality models we are blessed with today ( that is if you can afford to own one!) My guess is the average modeler, number 1 cannot afford new brass, and if he did, he might be scared to death to remove it from the box with what they cost now. That being said, I Think whats been discussed above is very good information for the new modeler that would like some brass engines, usualy steam is the desire over diesel from what I see. While the Brown Book of Brass is way out of date, its good for referance on the older models and ones that had issues. Dan G has his website and Brass Guide book that I hear is very good if you want to get into brass models. If you want an older brass engine, be prepared to take it appart, clean and relubricate, paint if you desire, add lights if you desire ect. They didnt normaly come with operating headlights or paint jobs back then. If you cannot do this yourself, make sure you know someone that does. I serve the local modelers in this respect. I add all wheel pickup to early diesel models and can motors when needed. I tear down, clean and relube steam models. I am doing a PFM C&O Berk right now for the president of the local club, his eyesight is gone to where he cannot do this anymore. I like this model enough that I am now hunting for a C&O Berk from PFM to add to my brass roster. Keep the info coming. I would just add that there be no Bashing of a brand in whole. Almost all of them have had a DUD or two, either in gear box failures or poor soldering. They can be fixed, regeard and rebuilt and there are several guys that do this. So even a dud, for the right price, can still become the great model they ment it to be.
I’m assuming that my Key models are later run Samshonga, because they’re very smooth, quiet and quite powerful in the ‘hauling’ department. The Keys I have are:
M-75 3-cylinder 4-8-2 (2)
M-63 4-8-4 (2)
M-68 4-8-4 (1)
K-59 2-8-2 (1)
C&S 2-10-2 (1)
USRA Heavy 2-10-2 (1)
USRA Light 2-8-2 (1) (kitbashed into a ‘semi’ K-59)
I had to do some rebalancing work on the USRA light Mike, and one of the M-63 4-8-4’s, but other than that, the Keys have been no problem at all as far as running qualities. So I would assume that all or most of them are the later Samshonga. I was surprised to hear from several posters that they were problematic.
Now if you want PROBLEMATIC in Spades, Custom Brass is the one I’d pick. I have one of their M-78 Rio Grande 4-8-2’s, and it’s been nothing but trouble since I got it. Underpowered, underweighted and the drivers are sprung with guitar wire! And it can’t run six feet down the track without dropping a detail or two. It’s the closest thing I’ve got to a ‘display’ brass locomotive. Whew! [:O]
Actually if I remember correctly Key came on the scene as a major player after Westside went out of business and they took over a lot of the Westside projects. By that time Samhongsa was putting out some of the best Korean Brass to see the light of day. I have an Allegheny, N&W A Class, 2-I1s Decapods, NKP S2/3, PRR T1, NKP H6d among others.
The Custom Brass Royal’s were the same as a PFM Crown and were well done models and well worth having. But the stuff made by Dong-Jin was problematic.
I don’t know who the builder was but the absolute worst engine ever to be imported was andAlco Models version of the NYC K3q Pacific. At the shop we could not get either one of them to run on a straight piece of track. I have been in contact with other people and the frame was not straight and if you looked at it cross-wise it would bend before your eyes.
Another classic was a caboose by FED (Called by modelers, Far East Disaster), an arm of NWSL. It was of no know prototype and was mis-dimensioned and painted orange with B&O lettering. Each model was signed by the builder whose finger and thumbprint could be found on the model where he/she dipped it into the paint.
I have several Key models mostly after WCD. With Coasting Drive option came out. That happened in 1987 or so and the ones into the 1990’s usually are good runners. My GS4 from Key is excellent and the FEF’s are very good also. The last run Key 4-12-2 that came in 2006 or 7 is extremely good but it was built by Samtech, I also have the AC12’s and several Challenger’s that are really nice and run like a watch. Samhongsa really started doing good runners in addtion to detail in the late 1980’s on most of their models.&nbs
I find it interesting that your review of the imports does not explain for example, why PFM falls way short of detail… They stopped importing about in the late 1980,s, but at the time, they were the standard.
The early Key models are less than great, but they have produced the most accurate UP Challenger to date. I have the Tenshodo’s the Overland’s and the Key’s Challengers. The last run Key is the only Challenger to get the correct walk ways that slant inwards along the smoke box. This was a gross error on the Overland’s and it was an error on most other builders also. The same error was made on the Overland Big Boy’s. I am sure if Brian imports those models again, that might be corrected. To say that all Key’s are junk is not knowing they imported some very good models that set standards also. Like the last run S