Quality of Product

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Something has been bothering me about a few HO scale manufacturers lately. It seems the majority of them don’t seem to give a crap about quality. Here are a few of my problems with certain manufacturers:

Athearn (Mostly Athearn Genesis);

Athearn up until this year hasn’t had quality sound in their DCC/Sound locomotives. My 844 from Athearn Genesis has a bad sound and none of the optional whistles sound correct for the 844. Now, they are using Tsunami so I went to purchase an SD60M from them. The sound is good, but the quality of the model was marginal at best. I am severely dissapointed with Athearn, they don’t seem to care.

Rapido:

I purchased the rapido super continental line UP cars last year and I was dissapointed with the fact that they include lighting but it shines through the walls. Other than that, the product detail was fantastic.

MTH:

In my opinion, MTH offers the best quality out there these days. The sound and detail is mind blowing and overall outstanding on my 4-6-6-4 Challenger #3985, SP 4449 and all of my SD70ACe’s. I am dissapointed with their reluctance to stick with their own DCS system, but I can access most features with my 28 function MRC Prodigy Advance squared. MTH at least seems to be focused on quality, but we’ll have to see as time progresses as I’ve heard of a few problems with their models having sound or operating malfunctions.

Broadway Limited:

This company seems to put out a good sounding quality product. I have an AC6000 from them.

Overland Models:

Once again, a good quality item but it should because of the high cost. My only complaint is the SD70ACE they produced runs irregular and isn’t very smooth.

WHAT ARE YOUR E

2

well, since you asked, here goes. but, first let me qualify this by saying perceived quality is an individual matter. if you are operation oriented then you may well have different criteria for judging a product. a lot guys are more interested in detail and rate things accordingly.

having said all that, i think proto 2000 diesels are over rated. they look great to me but for smooth and long lasting operation i think atlas and kato beat them hands down right out of the box. sound is not an issue with me so i won’t even go there.

i have had good luck with stewart products and also have been happy with the few p2k and bachman steam locomotives i have bought. i do wish the p2k steamers would pull better.

i have a couple of bli diesels and one runs like a watch even though it doesn’t pull as i would like. the other one sounds like a coffee grinder and i have given up tinkering with it. nothing seems to help.

as for cars, i still enjoy building kits from accurail, p2k, bowser, red caboose and the like. i am not a big fan of RTR (ready to repair) but i will buy some of the intermountain and walthers stuff if that is what it takes to get the cars i want. car kits may soon be a thing of the past but i have about 200 unbuilt ones and that should last me.

pet peeve is the crappy couplers (kadee clones) that seem to come on everything now. it wouldn’t bother me so if some of the mfrs would not brag about them being included. i know this is opening a can of worms but i have never destroyed a kadee number 5 while the knock offs are always loosing their spring tension or just breaking if they are subjected to the least amount of stress.

in closing, i want to tell you that i run 35 to 50 car road trains and 20 to 30 car transfer and interchange moves so pulling ability is more of an issue to me than it might be to some modelers.

grizlump

3

Here we go again!

The issue of quality pops up quite often lately - so it seems to be of concern to quite a few people here.

Here is my experience.

BLI - I bought a “refurbished” light Mike and was totally happy with it - no broken off parts, smooth runner right out of the box, sufficient detail, miserable manual. My BLI SD 40-2 bought new confirmed my initial impression. I installed Digitrax decoders in both locos.

BLI and Digitrax receive [:)][:)][:)][:)] out of 5

Athearn Genesis - my MP15AC w/sound was not what I expected it to be. No broken off parts, sufficient detail, miserable manual - that´s OK, but the decoder? It had an MRC sound decoder that would not allow to alter the starting speed. A switcher with the acceleration of a Porsche is not what I wanted.

Athearn receives only [:)][:)] out of 5

Bowser - I bought a Bowser/Stewart ARR F7A with sound. It came with the snow plow broken off. Although this required just a drop of CA to fix, I was pretty much annoyed. Sufficient detail, but unacceptable paint job and lettering.

Without that excellent Tsunami sound decoder, the loco would have failed completely, due to the broken off snow plow, so Bowser makes [:)][:)] out of 5 for me.

The don´t make them like they used to - that statement is, IMHO, not true. If you look back some 30 years and check the quality of Tyco, Mantua, AHM, in terms of detail and running characteristics, they were quite often pretty lousy. Even pricey brass locos required a lot of tweaking to turn into performers.

As I said in another thread, you get the quality which you are paying for. Don´t expect a $ 500 value for just $ 200.

4

Plainly and simply: I have small children at home. Small children really love steam power (not just limited to Thomas Trains). I have experienced considerable frustration with some makes of HO trains–and gave those manufacturers “second chance” after “second chance” and have still been consistently disappointed with the quality of the items delivered.

You get what you pay for, and right now, for HO steam motive power, I prefer MTH. Although we still own a Bachmann Spectrum PRR K-4 and a P2K Alco RS-27 diesel (both of which are a great value for the money), we are running MTH steam locomotives in DCS mode most of the time! When we want to run something else, we just run the DCS controller in DC mode, and park the fancy steam power.

We have one MTH Rio Grande (UP warbaby version) 4-6-6-4, and two MTH UP 4-12-2’s, and we did have two of the SP/WP GS-6 4-8-4’s, but they were traded-in on the 4-12-2’s. The MTH steamers that I’ve owned have been simply fantastic! The sound and LED lights are great; the smoke is great; they run as well or better than high dollar (Overland/Ajin or Hallmark/Samhongsa Supercrown) brass imports I once owned (before house and kids). The MTH detailing, while not “correct” enough to satisfy the most anal modelers is at least comparable to if not better than that found on many older brass imports. They look enough like the prototype to satisfy me, though I know they’re not perfect.

For freight cars: I’m buying Tangent Scale Models ACF 70-ton welded mill gondolas, Intermountain 57’ mechanical reefers and UP cabooses, and covered hoppers and boxcars from ExactRail and Tangent Scale Models.

The UP engineering staff during 1952 planned to keep the best steam power including 25 4-12-2’s through 1965, so that is my “modelers’ license” to h

5

I like your grading system, so if you don’t mind, I think I’ll use it too. This is my opinion on HO scale Diesel Loco’s:

Athearn (RTR): [:(]

Bachmann (Standard Line): [:)][:)]

Athearn (Genesis): [:)][:)][:)]

Walthers Trainline:[:)][:)][:)]

P2K/ P1K: [:)][:)][:)]

Bachmann (Spectrum): [:)][:)][:)][:)]

Atlas: [:)][:)][:)][:)]

Kato: [:)][:)][:)][:)][:)]

So far my prefered manufacture is Kato. They produce well running, reliable, and moderatly detailed models. I have also heard that they stand behind their products, but I’ve never needed to send one back.[:D].

Jamie

6

Well it sure is interesting how perceptions are different. The OP, and several responses, seem very focused on sound and DCC and those aspects of product quality.

Not being a user of DCC and not caring for sound in small scales, my perceptions are different.

I have DC versions of Proto2000 steam and diesel, Intermountain, Athearn Genesis F units, Athearn RTR RS units, and lots of Bachmann Spectrum steam. I am very happy with the quality of all of them.

They all run smooth and perform well.

I have a few BLI/PCM pieces, some bought as “stealth” models and some which I modified to eliminate the sound and DCC. These too are nice models.

Was every one perfect out of the box? No, but price nor brand has much to do with which ones needed work to run correctly or to suit my needs.

As for MTH, until they make a sound free loco that runs on 12 volts DC, they will not sell me anything.

As for Atlas and Kato, very nice stuff, but very little they make is in my 1954 era, so I don’t have anything from them.

All the product out there today is great compaired to just 20 years ago.

Happy to be modeling at this time in history.

Sheldon

7

Atlas [:)][:)][:)][:)][:)] (Honda)

Kato [:)][:)][:)][:)][:)] (Toyota)

BLI Paragon [:)][:)][:)][:)]

Proto 2K [:)][:)][:)][:)]

Athearn Genesis NO Sound [:)][:)][:)][:)]

Athearn RTR [:)][:)] (Chrysler/Dodge)

Bachmann Spectrum [:)]

Bachmann [V]

Lifelike [V]

8

I have to agree with others that quality is a personal opinion. Having said that, here are my opinions, but I don’t have experience with that many brands.

Atlas-Top notch in both detail and DCC operation. I like the QSI sound/DCC. Freight cars have good detail for the money.

BLI-Great detail and again the QSI sound/DCC operation. They still run slower than competitors models, not bad, but they do. No freight cars yet.

P2K-Again good detail and the QSI sound/DCC operation. No freight cars yet.

Athearn Genesis-Best detail, but MRC decoders are least desireable. New Tsunumis are good with great sound, but I am still working to get low speed operation to match QSI.

Athearn RTR-OK freight cars, espeicailly for the price.

Intermountain-To me, best detail on RTR freight cars for the price. Just picked up a F7 and good detail and QSI sound/DCC.

My .02. Again alot of personal preference.

Jeff

9

I agree that quality is indeed very subjective! For that reason, other than singling out BLI’s Blueline Sound and their wire plug connection (which both have been an issue for some buyers if you read the BLI forums as of late), I am attempting to avoid posting negatively on this forum about other manufacturers–because my idea of what engines truly stink is 180-degrees opposite from others on this thread–mainly because they don’t last on my flat (less than one-half of one percent grade) railroad. With that in mind, I’ll not be assigning rating comparisons between manufacturers–because my personal ratings will not match up with others.

On other forums, like Atlas, I was very much taken to task for my particular preferences–even for (gasp) buying anything MTH at all let alone liking what I did buy–and was then accused of things that were completely untrue (being a “paid” shill, etc.). I’m not sure what a “shill” would be paid by a manufacturer to come on the internet and lie, buy nobody has ever paid me a cent to do that. So I chose to leave that forum, period.

I agree that Kato’s diesel quality and durability is without parallel. Some don’t like the slightly heavier weight but very durable handrails. I find their recent offerings to be particularly outstanding and did own several SD40-2’s before reverting to steam era.

Some of the other diesels out there…not so much.

As I said, with MTH, I have been getting what I paid for out of the box without any “issues” that weren’t a very easy fix for my clumsy hands. I’ve very nearly bought the Rio Grande SD70ACE in the hot heritage paint…but didn’t have the money and had to make the tough choice to buy the second 4-12-2 instead.

The MTH engines do run on 12 v

10

Interesting ratings because we see a tendency. I’ve rated mine according to what I own and operated.

For diesel locomotives, in order:

Kato

Atlas

P2K (except the first runs of GP-18, got two and both let me down after few years when the gear wore off. But they worked fine again after repair).

Athearn… Well, my experience is limited why the blue box kits… and rarely operate them. They were good at the time, but better things came out since then and they can’t match the competition anymore. Never tried the Genesis line, except test run at the LHS so I won’t rate them.

Bachmann: Still run my first F9 from 25 years ago from time to time. It’s crap, but compared to LifeLike, it’s good crap. If I had to rate a locomotive for it’s toughness, I would put this one first.

Life-Life: What’s the point in making an engine that can’t even run on a simple circle layout!!!

Lionel HO: Junk… no wonder they never succeed in the HO scale…

For the steam:

P2K: Excellent detail, smooth run. I’ve got the 0-8-0 10 years ago and I’m still pleased with this product. However, like any P2K products, details are way to fragile for intensive operation on a large layout. Their cars are excellent too but grabs rarely survive operation session with people not knowing the value of things.

IHC: I’m always surprised with those cheap products and for the price, they are good base for kitbashing without culpability.

Mantua: I’ve got one from the 60’s, still running well but for standards long go…

Matt

11

Most of the responses here are about the same. I have had some good luck with Athearn RTR and Genesis, both locos and rolling stock. The Genesis units I do have do not have sound in them. I have never had a problem where I couldn’t fix. To me, Athearn locos require a little tweaking to get them right, whic I don’t seem to mind.

I noticed that no one has mentioned Intermountain. I am planning on purchasing a couple of their locos that will be released in the spring.

12

Know the old saying you get what you pay for same applies here comparing something from MTH aka Mike’s Treasure House to lets say an IHC is like comparing a VW Beetle and Ferrari GTO Yes both are automobiles and both have wheels and both get you where you need to go. It’s all pretty much predicated on price. I have some Brass locomotives that will blow away anything that comes out of MTH’s factory when it comes to detail and craftsmanship but they sit on a shelf in my living room waiting to someday be upgraded to new can motors and DCC. Some of the ready to run rolling stock is fantastic these days some of those Rapido and Kadee cars are outstanding and only need to be taken out of the box and put on the track. Usually not so with Athearn blue box cars but we’re all griping that they will be around no more so why is that? Sure I would love to be able to walk into my LHS and for $19.95 or less walk out with and NMRA contest winning piece of rolling stock but that ain’t gonna happen, but what I do know is that now a days I can buy if I have the money an excellent quality piece of rolling stock or a locomotive that has the workings of a Swiss watch. Back when I first started out in the hobby you weren’t that lucky. You need to be a pretty darned good kit builder and a handy fabricator of sorts to make detail parts that weren’t commercially available.

I try not to focus on whats bad about the new stuff but rather how good it is compared to way back when. We all would like more for less money no question about it but that human nature I guess. I can say that when it comes to customer service and quality issues I have had nothing but good experiences with one exception recently when it came to locomotives not running right or broken or missing parts

So I would have to say generally I am more then pleased with the selection of stuff thats out there these days but there always are a few little things that bug me but their not worth giving a second thought to.

13

I am generally pleased with most of the newer stuff, Genesis FP-7s, P2k E-7s, and surprisingly, the Bachmann GP-7. I am also happy with my Atlas Classic line and Master Line units which I consider my most reliable engines.

The larger portion of my roster is primarily made up of Athearn RTR and Proto 2k engines most of which have QC issues and need some tweaking. The Stewart/Bowser engines I have largely run well, although they have issues with detailing. My Alco 628 and 630, are the exception, as they need re-engineering.

My lone Intermountain F needs a body swap, because of an improperly seated headlight out of the box. The mechanism, however, runs flawlessly. My BLI GG1s had tracking isues until I reset the spring tension and lubricated the pony trucks. They now run well.

Over all, I consider Atlas locomotives to be the most reliable.

14

Some thoughts about diesel (no steam here):

My favorite locomotive has to be a Stewart “kit” (minimal assembly required) that I built a few years ago. It runs like a dream come true and isn’t too picky about trackwork. For detail BLI comes close, however I noticed that my BLI engine seems to derail at the slightest hiccup, probably a testament to my poor track laying. To simply fill the role of a more rank and file locomotive, my Athearns work just fine. I like being able to go down to my LHS and pick up a couple rtr locomotives for ~$55 each, a couple basic decoders… and viola… a reliable consist than can tolerate a bump here and there in my track and also wont empty my wallet.

Rolling stock:

Athearn and Walthers rtr are pretty much the same in my book. I can usually find things I want at the train store for a pretty good deal so I dont complain too much. I’ve built some kits but recently my fleet has just been Athearn and Walthers as they suit my demands.

15

Steam power in general does always require a little bit more special care–especially in trackwork–I had to allow for that when laying the track and also adjusted uneven joints later.

Most of the diesels are very forgiving of track irregularities–even the inexpensive ones.

The kinds of issues I’ve had with diesels include excessive arcing as wheels of certain engines begin to wear–such that I could never keep my track clean enough or was cleaning it (actually) every hour. That manufacturer has apparently changed the metal and/or plating on the wheelsets of their more recent offerings…All my rolling stock has all metal wheelsets.

16

I have several BLI steamers and have enjoyed good use of all of them. Three had some problems, were repaired effectively, returned to me inside of five weeks, and now run flawlessly. This includes PCM and Hybrid lines, although my one engine from each of those lines are as close to perfect as one should expect for MSRP’s of $400-500.

I wouldn’t buy a BlueLine for any reason. I know they have some programming issues, and I know they are the same as Paragon in every way except in the odd case, and of course there is no DCC in them. But that’s the problem. I am strictly DCC with sound, and I don’t want two decoders under one shell/tender.

I have a Lionel Challenger that is a joy. I would say quality is very good, but the details are a bit spartan.

I have two Trix locomotives, a Mikado and a GG1. Both are wonderful, probably the best and smoothest engines along with the PCM Y6b.

I have a Rivarossi Allegheny that runs very well, and looks to be about the most detailed engine I have. (Driver paint and white 'sidewall’s could be improved, though.)

I have an Atlas FM Trainmaster with DCC and sound that is, like the Lionel, a joy. I wish Atlas would enter the steamer market. Woo hoo!

I have a P2K Heritage 0-6-0 that is a gem, light, with a funky towbar and plug combo, but a gem. I also have a P2K FA2/FB2 set. It is a nice model, and quite functional…glad to have it.

I have two SD75M’s from Genesis, two different runs. Both seem to have the truck issues that the first run was plagued with, unfortunately. They run okay, but want to derail on curves. Very nice looking, smooth drives. But they are parked.

I have only purchased one DC Spectrum J, and had a Tsunami installed. It jerked horribly. My decod

17

I mentioned Intermountain in my list of “very happy with”, very early in this thread. Sorry you missed that amid all the smiley faces and Athearn/Bachmann bashing.

Sheldon

18

Crandell,

If they don’t run good on DC, they won’t run good on DCC. It might have been a good idea to send it back to Bachmann and get one that worked BEFORE you tried to have DCC installed in it.

Yes, Bachmann’s dud rate seems a little higher than most others, but when they are right, they run well. Yes, the N&W J from Bachmann is a little on the light side, but weight is easily added. So starting with one that runs, DC or DCC, it can be a very nice piece at a good price.

I have about 30 Bachmann Spectrum steamers, 3 had to be returned, their replacements all ran perfectly. All of the run well and look good.

Sheldon

19

Sheldon, I’m sorry if someone doesn’t AGREE with “YOU” its considered “bashing”.

I don’t like “peas”. Uh oh…I’m bashing again. [:-^]

20

Well once again on this subject, opinons are all over the map and full of generalizations, my self included.

So to better address the OP’s question, I’m going to relate a more specific list, as briefly as possible.

I have a large fleet of locos - but they are restricted to a narrow era - being focused in this way I am amazed by those of you talk about a SD70 whatever and a 4-8-4 in the same sentence.

But here goes:

Large fleet of Proto2000, GP7’s, SD9’s, FA1’s, FA2’s, F7’s, BL2’s, PA1’s E8"s - multiple copies of all totaling over 50 units from production runs spread over 15 years - all mechanicaly stock. - Cracked gears in about 20%, per the known “cracked gear problem” all repaired easily with free gears from LifeLike/Walthers. No other issues, they all run great. As for having fragile details - not a problem for me - they are models not toys.

Two of each, Proto2000 2-8-8-2, 0-8-0 - both excelent models, just wish all where the traction tire versions.

Large fleet of Bachmann Spectrum/New Standard Steam - any where from 2 to 9 of each, 4-6-0, 4-8-2H, 2-6-6-2, 2-8-4, 2-8-0. Many have been kit bashed with different tenders from Bachmann. All have had weight added to their tenders, some drawbars have been modified for wire clearance, the 2-8-4’s have weight added and have been converted to Lima super power 2-8-2’s with brass trailing trucks. Three of this total group did run bad out of the box and where returned for replacement.

Several sets of Intermountain F & FP units - all run great, detail is great.

One Rivarossi 2-6-6-6 - great model, runs well, pulls well, well detailed, can be hard on traction tires.

Two BLI/PCM Reading T-1 4-8-4’s - these locos needed several ajustments to run correctly - they where tail heavy and tracked poorly until I added two oz in