I am new to the hobby (just purchased 2 HO scale emd sw8/900 DCC locos and 2 cabooses) that I hope to put to good use in the coming months. I am building a new house as we speak which will have a 15’ 4" X 20" bonus (train) room. I plan on using the entire room for my layout with a duck under at the entrance to the room.
My question is this; I want a freight yard with a lot of switching etc. and have found one in a magazine which I’m afraid might be too large for my room. The HO scale yard is exactly 15 X 20. Is it me or will this be too large for my overall layout?? I’m also concerned about having somewhere for the trains to go once they leave the freight yard, should I have another yard somewhere else on the layout? I want to model the norfolk and western in the 70’s and want to model coal operations. I have been mulling this over for about three months now and can’t decide what to do or how to begin designing a complete layout for my 15 X 20 room??
Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you , Mike Pedri, Mullens, WV
From your description my first response would be… “Hold on! Slow down”!
When you started to learn to swim you probably didn’t dive in at the deep end (you may have been hrown in I suppose…)
I would really reccomend that you start out by getting all sorts of different experience(s).
With all that space you could do a nice small switching layout to get the hang of building boards, wiring (Straight DC or DCC) and what you can do with switching… plus some bits of learning about scenery, car weathering and much more…
PLUS READ, READ,READ,READ… AND LOOK AT ALL THE PICS of the real thing YOU CAN FIND…
If you do go for the whole hog right off it would be a good idea to get the maintrack built as a complete loop very early on (I’m assuming that this layout goes round the whole outside of the room). Even if you later need to go back in and add switches/turnouts at a later date this will give you somewhere to run your trains in what sounds like a big project that would/could take a lot of time.
My advice is to slow down. If you are new to the hobby, you really don’t know what you want. To jump into a large layout, well let’s just say that it is an expensive way to learn from your mistakes. I have about the same space as you and lucked out because I decided to build a layout for my son while I built my empire. I chose the wrong track, made design error, learned new concepts, and learned what it is about the hobby I liked. Now I am designing a bigger portion of my basement, about a quarter, and if you look at my posts, you’ll see that I changed scale, location, the era I’m modeling several times during the planning session.
I have a beginner’s guide in my signature below. Check it out.
You might want to look into joining a club. Then you can run a few trains and learn what you like to do.
I’m afraid you’re right. I was thinking of building this RR in modular 4’ long sections but just couldn’t decide what part of the RR (once i have a design) to start. I love the yard opertations but am afraid that a yard that size would be too big when compared to the rest of the layout. I know I’m running before I walk but was thinking that modular building would allow me to learn (correct mistakes which would ony effect a 4’ section of the layout) as I go.
Thank you and I really appreciate and welcom your comments and suggestions. Mike Pedri
Mike, it sounds like you have a lot of fun ahead of you!
There is a local HO scale layout near me that uses an idea that I have seen in MRR a few times and it seems to work very well. There is a large mine operation that backs onto hill. The coal tipple has tracks that run through the hill and emerge on the other side at a power station. In this way empty hppers are delivered to the mine and emerge on the otherside at the power station as empties to be picked up. The full hoppers leave the mine and are delivered to the power station and go thru the hill to emerge as filled hoppers for the trip to the power station again. This saves a lot of hassle adding loads and removing them from the hoppers. Anyway, I thought that this was a neat idea and an effective way to get some operations for coal running smoothly.
You’ve gotten some good advice so far so I’m not going to add to it.
Just a suggestion, Mike. It appears that you have an identical thread (Question about 1st layout) that is the same as this one. You can easily delete that one by going into it and clicking the X delete button in the upper right corner of the text box. That will keep all your responses here on this particular thread.
You’re 4’ at a time idea is very sensible… but takes forever and very few people that go that way last the coarse. (Some do and build excellent layouts - you just have to be very thorough and patient).
One thing you might try if you have a whole room free is to build a shelf layout all the way round with just a 2 track main. This need only be 4" wide and won’t need a lot of materials. If you put in a couple of junctions - one at each end of one wall - you can bridge from the shelf layout to modules that you make to try things out. This will give you somewhere to whiz hings round and enjoy watching the trains go by and opportunity to learn some of the ins-and-outs of both shelf layouts (that I don’t usually go for) and free standing modules.
Oh yes… and have fun!
I have to add…
Yards are problematic… there are several types of yards… in most yards trains/stock stand in parallel lines and pretty close together… so most of what you can see is the roofs of the trains (saves detailing the sides [:-^]).
Similarly switching has its issues… it can easily get to be like watching paint dry. If you look at the big railfan firt choice places they are junctions and run-by sites NOT switching yards. Doesn’t mean that you don’t want sw
After 20+ years in the hobby Lets just say that I and most model railroaders have been where you are at now. As far as your project is concerned, although ambitious for a newcomer moving forward with a large endeavor such as the one you are proposing is sound even for a beginner. The key here is to plan. Also, most relatively large layouts can be overwhelming once construction begins but one trick is to either build modular or sectional, that way you are concentrating on one portion at a time and won’t be intimidated by an entire room full of Layout or at least will be guided within defined parameters while learning as you go. This is the approach I have taken and it works for me. I had my home buil
Lots of good advice above. READ being the best place to start. John Armstrong’s “Track Planning For Realistic Operations.” which I’m reading now, is very informative and lets you know space requirements, etc.
I also agree, get something running to keep your interest going, even if it is just one line around the room with a few turnouts, then pick a section and finish that area, module or whatever you want to call it. Do another spot, may be a continuation or a completely seperate spot. I didn’t get my benchwork started soon enough in our new house and the location got taken over as mother-in-law space, then son space, now other son’s storage. Get something moving to claim the space.
Above all remember to have fun, read some, do some, read, do. You’ll end up making changes, but that is part of the fun.
15 x20 is a nice sized room to have a great layout. I would try to develop a track plan without a duck under. As you get older, you will appreciate not having one. If you are determined to have your layout cross your entry into the room, design it with a lift/swing bridge section instead.
If you want your yard large because it is to store your trains, think about a hidden staging yard instead. Not only does that give you a place to store your trains, but it gives you an off layout destination for your trains.
Since you are building the house, now is the best time to install proper lighting for the layout. All you really need is the shape of your layout benchwork ( is there an island in the middle of the room? ) and install the lighting above it.
As far as modeling coal operations on the N&W, try to look up some railroad maps. The maps should give you a pretty good idea on the trackage around the mines they service. You can condense them for the size of your layout. They will also provide ideas for spur tracks for other industries along the route.
Do you mean switching in the yard (drilling), or do you mean switching in an industrial area where cars have to be spotted at the appropriate industries? Operationally there is a pretty big difference.
Well it depends. If you just like making up and breaking down trains (drilling a yard) then it doesn’t matter. You could make up a train, pretend it leaves, reassign the cars, pretend it just arrived and break it back down into the new classification. It doesn’t really have to go anywhere to re-create the operational function of a large yard. If you went this route just make certain to have multiple arrival/departure tracks to use as staging (where the trains are left when they “leave” or “arrive” the yard.
This requirement seems to be in direct conflict with the desire for a yard. Most coal operations, especially in the 70s, were unit train operations. Unit trains don’t get broken down in a yard.
Or is that the real question, a layout designed for Yard vs. Coal trains operation?
Since you are new to the hobby, my advice is to make haste slowly. There’s an overwhelming desire to jump in and build the entire Roanoke-Bluefield area, along with a belief that it can be done quickly. In two words, NO WAY!! Definitely, get a copy of Track Planning for Realistic Operation. It’s a great guide to realistic planning.
The suggestion that you build a single track on a narrow shelf is a good one. I’d make the shelf a little wider along one wall and work in a few industries and a SMALL yard. That way you can master the necessary tracklaying and electrical wiring skills without putting substantial capital at risk.
Later, when you develop your layout far enough to have some scenery, you can hide staging tracks under some of it - or on a different level. That’s where your trains go when they leave the yard.
Avoiding duckunders, or drawbridges, is a good idea. Duckunders are a major pain in several parts of the anatomy ("Owww!!! My Head!) while drawbridges (lift up, drop down or swing) are maintenance headaches and potential disasters waiting to happen. How you can avoid them is driven by the design of your room. If your access door is at the center of a long wall a rolled-in C shape becomes a very practical possibility, as does multi-level construction. That, of course, would be the best of all possible scenarios (and the one I’m lucky to have.)
Again, welcome aboard. Good luck with your planning and building.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - in approximately 16 x 20 with no duckunders)
I got interested in the hobby last February or so. By reading this group (and Track Planning for Realistic Operation, which I had bought for some reason almost 20 years ago) I saw that there were plenty of mistakes to be made. My biggest fear was that I’d sink a lot of dough into things then have a layout that would bore me and I’d lose interested. I decided that the best investment was books, magazines, and pencils and paper to sketch out designs (well, AutoCAD, actually). I still haven’t built anything but I’ve figured out a reasonable car and loco roster that will work for any number of manifestations of the Marginal Branch of the PRR in 1961 and purchased the kits. I’m still working on the plan but feel more confident that I’ll have an enjoyable layout. Even if I don’t, nearly everything I have is “liquid” at this point and can be sold with little loss in value. I figure the way to get the most out this hobby it to try and enjoy all the aspects: creating the layout, building the trains, and operating them.
Sounds like you’ve made a pretty good start already.
One of the next things to do is a bit of time travel…
You have a specific era of interest so you need to go back and take a good look at it. If your funds don’t run to a time machine just look up various pic sites on the web like…
If you can design layouts on computer I’m sure that you can find your way round these sites.
Most of the big RR also have their own historical societies. They are excellent resources and usually have people very willing to help… especially if you are positive, clear about what you are looking at (not “I want to build something from your RR please tell me how to do it”. I don’t think you’d do that but it’s amazing how many people do. Okay precision questions may not be possible at first but it is equally impossible to answer completely vague question - if you’re wondering… your original post here isn’t vague… you give the essential information… scale, era, type of layout (sort of), size of room and some idea of the ops you want to do… pretty good… that’s why we can all come up with pretty close together answers - which still leave you with loads of room to make your own choices. It is, after all, your layout to fit your individual tastes… [end of sermon]).
I would look really hard at my suggestion and tomikawa’s to use a shelf right round the room. If you build this so that you can take it part in easy sections you will later be able to move it either quite high up the wall or lower down.
Higher up you can use it as a sort of working showcase where you can put a favourite train and just let it run for the plaesure of watching it while you work
My two cents: So you want a yard. Think about what trains you will be building, what jobs the trains are going to do and how to deal with inbound trains? It’s not for everyone.
Switching industrial areas will be a joy or a taste of the Odd Fellows Home depending on your track work. Some like puzzles and can lose themselves in it for hours. Others want direct track and just shove cars to and from industries without having to work around that object, crossing, blue-flagged car or using that short run around for the 1000th time only to be confronted with the need to use some other cars as a handle to reach into your goal.
I urge you to get Kalmbach’s books on Operations. I think it is still in print and will provide you with a little guidiance.
The one book that helped me alot was the “The Railroad What it is; what it does” from John Armstrong 4th Edition. Published by Simmons-Boardman Books, Inc. Omaha Nebraska the Book is assigned a ISBN 0-911382-04-6 It is a paper back about a inch thick and may not be in print anymore. But it will give you (At times, rather dry reading about things requiring further learning) a idea about a railroad.
I think I will go ahead and talk briefly about another part of the hobby that is rather sensitive to some folks. Money.
If you have a source like a Hobby Shop that can order from Walthers and most other manufactors then you have a good start. I recommend establishing a budget per month and sticking to it. I also caution you about Credit Cards and Layaways. My railroad is cash only and I carefully plan 6-12 months ahead. Once in a while my wife will punish me with extra errands or assignments if I brought home that “Out-of-budget” impulse item half way thru the month. Her ability to tolerate such impulsive buys diminishes with each passing year. (Except during the holidays)
I can tell you that the Hobby is in a what I would call "The Good
When I built my current layout, I started small. At first, all I had was a pair of 2x6 sections. Once the track was laid, at least I could shuffle freight cars around to the various “industries.” After things were running smoothly, I built two more sections–another 2x6, and a 4x4 corner. Again, I made sure things were running on the corner, before I moved onto the last section. Right now, nothing is scenicked, but at least I can run some trains!
*Edit: I should mention that my layout is about 16x10 and runs along two walls in my basement.
Get some cars and decide how long of trains you want to run. Your yard will have to have a few tracks that are long enough both to make up this train and to receive this size train. The lenght of train also controls the lenght of the siding that you are going to have. You need some extra room at the front and the back of the yard tracks and the siding so you won’t hit trains on the other tracks.
Time goes on. You get more engines and more cars. Now you want longer trains, or you make a special train. Allow for running two three engines and a few more cars. Train lenght that you want to run controls the size of most of your other decisions. With your space at 15 x 20. There are only so many variations of benchwork.
You will pickup coal at a mine or it will arrive in trains from a staging yard.
It will be sorted and made into another train at the yard.
The coal train will leave the yard to go somewhere either a factory or power plant or to a stagaing yard.
The size of all these areas will be controled by the size of train coming and going.
Someone suggested the empty in and the full out. About the only way to do this would be to put a backdrop in a middle penisula and hide the whole. Have two tracks go through this hole. One with the empty and one with the full.