I don’t know if anyone on this forum uses Gargraves but I have several questions I was hoping you can answer, as I’m going to soon be purchasing about 150 feet of the track (Seems like Charlie Ro’s prices are cheapest at $250 for 50 3-ft flex sections of nickle silver wood ties; but I’d be willing to look elsewhere if prices are lower).
What kind of wood are the ties made from? I’m planning to use the track outside and may need to periodically apply preservatives designed for certain type of wood.
Are the rails nickle-silver? I’ll have to be careful not to step on them perhaps.
I have used silver solder effectively on stainless but it must be clean or it can be contrary to solder at times.
I don’t know about yard installation, but on benchwork, I always lay out the track curve arc centerline with a “radius tape”, string,etc,and install[bend] the track in-place. I bend and align the center rail with the marked arc line [or in my case the joint in split cork roadbed], driving up the rails and installing screws as I advance toward the track’s leading edge. I leave the screws out at the trailing joint until last and then ease the joint in and then install screws to achieve perfect non-kink alignment with the center line and a perfect curve arc.
David, many folks I know (including myself) insert flattened spade lugs or tabs of sheet brass/nickel silver (I prefer nickel silver because the oxide conducts unlike brass) into the slot in the tubular rail from underneath. Feeder wires are soldered to the lugs or tabs. This works for both Gargraves and traditional tubular track. It makes a pretty secure connection, yet is removable if needed.
Connecting your posts - the Gargraves plastic ties are supposed to be UV resistant. I think Gargraves plastic tie with stainless steel rail would be your best bet for outside use. The wood ties are stained; I don’t know how much moisture and water resistance they have for durability in the elements. Might be a lot of protoype-like maintenance (tie replacement) until wood preservatives came into wide-spread use. Using clean, loose ballast and maintaining it for a roadbed would help the longevity of the wood ties - again, just like the prototype.
Yup Dave, my layout is all Gargraves. I don’t have any experience with the stainless, but what Leonard says sounds correct about the soldering.
As far as the ties go, maybe a shallow pan with some of that deck preservative would work, just dip them and hang them to dry. Even though they are stained, I don’t think they will hold up to the weather without treatment.
One thing about the pins, they aren’t stainless, so you may have electrical trouble without jumpers.
Use the stainless version. You may want to consider the plastic tie version for outdoor use, This obviates the biggest plus GG has, i.e real wood ties, but real wood also tends to really rot. If you can keep the ballast well drained (just like a real railroad) it might be less of an issue.
Bend in place using the track centerline as a guide. NEVER start or end a curve at a track joint. Try to adjust so you have six-eight inches of run-in/run-out. A drftsman triangle and a 2 1/2" fibergalss re-enforced cut off wheel make installation a lot easier.
I believe silver solder means higher temps. Might try that and heat sink the ties with wet sand (looks like the plastic ties are the ones I should go with then for UV protection, as Fred seems to suggest).
My track will float on ballast so no screws will be used, as my understanding is that GG flex track stays in place once bent; at least the wood tie variety does. Don’t know about the plastic tie variety. Maybe someone can advise.
Fred,
The spade or lugs sounds interesting. Wish I had a picture.
Elliot or anyone,
Is stainless steel as good a conductor as, say, nickle silver or clean brass? I’m fabbing my own turnouts using rails pulled from Realtrax, which I believe are n/s. I don’t suppose the 2 types of metals react in an adverse way.
Also, if I solder copper wire to stainless steel using silver solder, I don’t know if the different types of metals react poorly.
Reason I sound so paranoid about this is I had a really bad experience once, living in a condo.
The plumbers had mixed 2 types of metals. I forget which types but I believe they mixed brass with another type and condos after about 5 years started flooding due to bursted pipes.
The warranty phase had passed so we had to foot the bill for all new plumbing.
They also screwed up the roof with a new type of preservative that warped the roof but that’s another story and I’m off on a tangent again.
Stainless steel is about as good a conductor as brass, or about 25 percent of copper’s conductivity, depending on the alloy. Steel is around 10 percent, but varies a lot with alloy. Nickel silver is about 5 percent.
Dave, you can use common tin/lead electronic solder if you use an active flux. “Stay Clean” zinc chloride flux will work on many common stainless alloys. Also Leonard may have been referring to silver bearing solder which is 1-3% silver in tin/lead. Not silver solder used in brazing. Silver bearing solder melts at temperatures close to common tin/lead.
I would also recommend plastic ties for outdoor applications. The wood Gargraves uses is not vey dense (poplar??) and would not last long outdoors and most wood preservatives would probably corrode the metal.
Thanks, sounds like the flux is the key. I use a Weller soldering iron without any fancy settings.
Yes, appears from replies that plastic is the way to go then. (I admit to having a fondness for the wood look of their ties so a bit disappointed but will forge ahead anyway).
Does the plastic tie variety maintain its shape when bent? This would be a very important consideration as the track must float in ballast so in can expand and contract naturally in all conditions without kinking.
Dave, this might sound a little primitive, but I used Gargraves around
my outside loop and bent to around a 55 gal. drum. Or you can use
a 35 gal. drum, depending on the radius. And I agree, with the statement
that you should never start a curve at the end of the track. Leave
about 6 inches of straight.
Thanks. I’ll heed the advise about the curve and at least 6 inches of straight. Fortunately I’m not constricted by benchwork table layouts so there’s plenty of room in the wilds of the backyard.
I don’t have a 55 gal drum but I know a fat lady of that diameter who I possibly can wrap it around.
Do you know if the plastic tie variety holds its shape once bent like wood. I know that Atlas and Scale tracks wants to bend back to the straight position.
Dave,
I bought 42" curved sections of Phantom Gargraves with plastic ties.
It was easier for me. I know that they wooden ties, when bent, stay
in the bend position.
Also, a fat lady might complain, when bending track.
All of the GG I’ve seen with plastic ties was sectional and curved. I dont know if they have started making a plastic tie flex track with SS for outdour use.
Re the curves, if it is all curves and they are large radius (aka like O-84) you shouldn’t have problems. The only time you do get into trouble is trying to go from a tight curve like O-31 to a straight section with the joint at the start of your tangent track. When you get to withing 7-9 inches of the end of a section of track, square off the rails with the cut off wheel and attach the next section, keep bending from the center rail. I worked with a pair of cordless drills, one with a countersink boring bit and the other with a screw driver. Bend about 9" of track with only the first three to four in critical alignment, drill/secure. Bend another 4-5" and go back and secure the 4-5" nearest the first section. Keep working back and forth until you only have 7-9" left. Cutt off, secure new piece, pick up bending/securing where you left off.
One question. How are you securing the track to the ground? All of the above assumes homasote/cork/foam over plywood:-)
Dave
I have never seen GarGraves plastic tie flextrak only wood tie, but maybe I missed it. I believe you will have to fasten your flex in some manner to keep it from migrating in the curves when heavy engines run on it. Not necessarily to the extent that we screw down benchwork track (I remove the scews after I glue-ballast my track) but some sort of minimal restraint to limit side-to-side movement and possible misalignment. Perhaps pieces of 3/8 rebar driven into the ground adjacent to the ties or gutter spikes,etc.
My only outdoor experience was in 1991 with Large Scale[G] at our N.C. mountain cottage. In areas where it wasn’t on raised trestles I buried and staked treated 1x4s edgewise under my real granite ballast for attaching the track. [However,this was an ill-fated effort at 4,000’ altitude where I quickly learned that the terrain was too rough and the weather far too hostile so I moved inside and built a airborne twin shelf 5-track layout in O-gauge].
Dave. CTT had an article "on an “O” guage outdoors layout in Pennsylvania (Pittsburg?)that used Gargraves. “The Bourg La Reine Railraod” It was in their August 2000 issue. Maybe you can still get a back copy. Unfortunately the builder soaked the track in creasote. I’m certain you’ll find another preservative. Your project sounds great. Best of luck with it!