I’m a novice and I’m experimenting trying to learn what works and why. This is all straight DC.
I set up a test track with a mainline running west to east, with one turnout to a siding near the middle. There is one electrical connection to the mainline.
First I used a Peco Insulfrog turnout which resulted in constant power to the mainline, but power to the siding only when the turnout was thrown in that direction. Fine. That makes sense to me. But my 4 wheel locos tended to stall on the turnouts.
So I replaced the Insulfrog with an Electrofrog. To my surprise, there is no power to any portion of the track when the turnout is thrown in the direction of the siding.
Is that the way an Electrofrog is supposed to work? If so, where will I need electrical connections? Both ends of the mainline plus the siding? That would be no problem, but this is just a test track. Ultimately, however the siding will grow into a yard in a tree arrangement where the tracks keep branching off (I’m just trying to describe a typical yard). Then will I need a connection between each turnout?
Also, will the answers be different when I switch to DCC?
I commend your experimenting. I’m just about to decide Atlas vs. Peco, and electrofrog vs. insulfrog myself. Note that I have not actually experimented with either Peco yet.
Your description sounds a little fishy. Assuming a mainline with one turnout in the middle, and a power feed on the point side of that turnout on the main line (i.e. siding is east of the turnout, power feed is west of the turnout), I would expect that the electrofrog turnout would feed power only to the selected route, be that main or siding. I would expect the insulfrog to power all three sections continuously regardless of the position of the points. Perhaps your power feed is not on the point side? Perhaps you swapped electrofrog and insulfrog in your description? Perhaps you have another short somewhere?
I don’t have alot of experience yet, but the electrofrog switches are power routing (I think). Consider a main with a passing track (double ended siding). To prevent a short when the turnout at one end is thrown and not the other end, at least one gap must be cut in at least the rails connected to the frogs somewhere between the turnouts on both the main and the siding. I’m thinking this makes wiring power routing turnouts rather complex. The Loy’s Toys website has excellent primers on these turnouts.
For DC, power routing can be convenient because you can “park” a train on the passing track and run a second train on the main. For DCC, the conventional wisdom seems to be that power routing is not beneficial in this way, and non-power routing turnouts are recommended.
I’m surprised you are having trouble getting locos over the insulfrog. This is rumored to be a problem only for very short locos or older locos with pickup on limited wheelsets. I recently had an experience with a Proto 1000 diesel which was stalling on frogs, and I found I had oiled the axels. It turns out the
Harry: The following answer will apply to DCC and DC.
Insulfrog turnouts leave one rail unpowered in the unused direction. If you have a loop of track and one turnout, the power goes all the way around the loop and gets to the unpowered rail (if it’s set for the siding). If you power from the point end of the turnout and don’t have a loop, one rail beyond the turnout is dead and nothing moves.
Electrofrog turnouts have both points and the frog electrically connected (as it comes from the box). This means that one raod beyond the frog is powered normally, but the other has both rails at the same potential, e.g. both positive, so nothing moves. However, if you have power applied to that track (a loop or extra feeders), this will create a short circuit. The short is prevented by putting an insulated gap (usually a plastic rail joiner) just past the frog, before any other feeder. There are further considerations if you have more turnouts around the layout.
Peco have made provision in some of their turnouts to isolate the frog from the points by breaking a connection underneath. This is covered in the instructions. After you do this, you need to add extra wiring to power the frog.
Loy’s Toys have a website that goes into much more detail.
To expand on Jim’s comments (we were typing at the same time).
There are plastic frog turnouts – Snap Track switches – where all the rails are powered at all times. Peco don’t have this extra bit of wiring in them so one track beyond the turnout is unpowered.
The Peco Electrofrog type turnouts are indeed “power routing” but this feature isn’t meant to power any adjoining track beyond the frog;What it does is supplying the frog with the correct polarity when the TO is thrown in either way,wether straight route or diverging.When properly installed,electrofrog turnouts have insulating joiners at both legs of the frog,thus making it impossible to supply any current to the adjoining track,wich has to be fed current through its own feeder(s).
Thanks, your info was very helpful. In my original post I tried to simplify the layout too much in an effort to make it understandable. The mainline on my test track is in fact a loop. After reading your posts, I electrically “broke” the loop, and things worked as expected and as you both described.
Obviously I need to do some more reading. Thanks for the references.
Also, Jim, two of my locos are indeed very short - 0-4-0 Porters. Those are the only ones I have a problem with.
Ah, I’m getting smarter… As I said, I have not actually handled either type of Peco turnout. I do have a couple old Atlas Snap switches and also a couple new Atlas code 83 Customline turnouts and I think that none of them do any switching of any frog rails. It’s probably really smart NOT to try to power much track with a power routing turnout since the current must flow through the points. I would think a short circuit down stream of the frog could cause the points to overheat where they contact the rails.
With your 040, what’s the distance between the drivers? Do they both have electrical pickup? I’m thinking one ends up on the frog (no voltage available) and the other on the point (maybe not a great connection either). Either way, powering the frogs may be a good idea for you. So far, I don’t own any short steam engines.
The rule for gapping power routing turnouts (such as Peco Electrofrog) is that either frog rail must have a gap somewhere between it and any feeder. As you saw, your loop connected the main line frog rail back to the feeder and caused a short circuit when the turnout was thrown for the spur. When you added the gap, all was well.
The power routing feature can be used to avoid block toggle switches in yards and spurs (single ended sidings). By not gapping the frog rail on the spur side (and having no feeders on the frog rail on the spur), the turnout controls whether the spur is live or not. When thrown for the main, both spur rails are at the same polarity and nothing moves on the spur.
The same power routing can flow through a series of turnouts in a yard ladder of single ended yard tracks so just the track lined up is live. Rules are no feeders on the frog side of the ladder (otherwise gaps and block toggles are required) and all turnouts have the points towards the feeders. This is most useful on small shelf switching layouts to reduce the number of blocks and wiring.
The other advantage of Electrfrogs (as you noted) and other turnouts with powered frogs is the ability to run small locomotives over the turnout without stalling.
Thanks to all who replied. This thread has been very helpful to me, and I think I can sort things out from here.
Jim22, in response to your question, the distance between the center of the drivers is about 1.20 inches. They both have electrical pickup.
“I’m thinking one ends up on the frog (no voltage available) and the other on the point (maybe not a great connection either).” I think you’re exactly right, plus my test track is just temporarily tacked down on plywood, and it’s possible that the stiffness of uneven track is lifting one wheel slightly off the track momentarily. I can’t detect it, but I can’t visually rule it out either. I should have mentioned the locos only stall at very low speeds, but the six-wheel locos will crawl through without a problem.
If this were a permanent layout, I would have the track as smooth as possible, but I still like the idea of the extra protection the Electrofrogs will apparently provide.
You and the others have helped me accomplish this step of my goal: To understand what works and why. Thanks again.
There is another factor contributing to contact problems in plastic frogs. If the wheel flanges are too deep the wheel will lift up and the other wheel on that side may lift up and it can lose contact without being on the plastic. European made locos used to have deeper than standard flanges (some may still) and the bottom of the frog was only deep enough for standard flanges.