I recently acquired several of the now discontinued Walthers troops sleeper cars on ebay and now have several questions about their history. This was an impulse buy because these look like interesting pieces of rolling stock even though they don’t really fit my era. As I understand it, these were box cars converted to transport troops during WWII. Typically, would these cars have been run in extra trains, cut into regularly scheduled passenger trains, or run as seperate sections of passenger trains. Also, did these survive in the post WWII era? Were they used during the Korean War? I know Walthers now offers express box cars that were converted from the troop sleepers but was this what was done with all these cars or did some remain in service as troop sleepers? In any case, these are very interesting pieces and if necessary, I will invent an excuse to run them on my layout.
The troop sleepers were not conversions. They were built in WWII for troop movements as there was a shortage of sleepers/diners for moving troops. After the war, many were sold and converted into baggage cars or even cabooses.
Jim
Not all railroads bought them when the war was over and they were sold off. I think there was a Trains article a couple of years ago about them that should answer a lot of questions. I know the trucks on them were not well liked by several roads.
The original trucks were sufficiently disliked (for valid reasons) that they were banned from interchange service. That’s why a lot of troop sleepers and troop diners ended up in MW service in camp trains for use in remote places. Note that cabeese and passenger head-end cars could be kept on the home road. Also, some of them had their trucks replaced and then could be used for interchange express cars, or even ordinary box cars.
The troop sleepers had been built quickly to fill an immediate need. They deteriorated quickly, too. Since the Korean War didn’t involve mass movement of troops on the scale of WWII, they were handled in ordinary passenger cars which, by then, were becoming surplus as civilian passenger service was being cut back or abandoned. By the Vietnam war, the troops were traveling by air, and even seagoing troop transports were an endangered species.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
There’s a 16 page article in Volume 5 (sold out at the publisher) of “Railway Prototype Cyclopedia” about the troop sleepers and kitchens.
There were 2400 troop sleepers and 800 troop kitchens made during and after World War 2. In March 1947, the government offered for sale 2290 of them. Many were bought for conversion to commercial purposes, frequently baggage cars. No mention is made in the article as to what happened to the unsold cars.
The troop kitchen could feed 250 people. The sleeper could handle 30 people (29 + porter). They were often mixed in trains with 13 section and 12-1 sleepers. A 12-1 sleeper would handle 36 + porter (except, apparently, for the Navy–24 + porter). You can do the math and figure appropriate ratios of cars.
A typical troop train:
2 baggage, 2 troop sleeper, 1 13 section, 1 troop kitchen, 2 troop sleeper, 1 14 triple bunk sleeper, 4 13 section sleeper, 1 troop kitchen, 1 13 section, 6-3 sleeper, 10-2-1 sleeper.
I’m going to assume, perhaps wrongly, that the last two sleepers were for officers and similar less worthy people.
So, you can put together a pretty good WWII troop train with some baggage, troop sleeper, troop kitchen, 14-1 and/or 12/1 sleepers, and one or two of the compartment/drawing room cars.
An all “troop” train appears to have been highly unusual–heavyweight sleepers and baggage were added as appropriate. Also, “real” diners didn’t seem to show up much, if at all.
Ed
Thanks for the good information. I got a kick out of the above comment. It reminded me of the line from the movie Stripes spoken by the Warren Oates drill sargent character.
“Don’t call me sir. I’m not an officer. I work for a living”.
Many were surplused to the Alaska Railroad – at the time a federal government-owned operation – and converted into boxcars. Some are still in existence in MofW service on the ARR.
RWM
Don’t know what part of the country you live but there is a pristine one in New Buffalo Michigan just off Rte 12 at the main intersection in town with la Porte road. Someome is using t as an office.
As others have said, post WWII, many railroads did buy them and converted them to headend cars for passenger trains, either baggage or storage mail, although the doors weren’t set up very well to serve a baggage cars. Various RRs converted both kitchen and sleepers by plating over windows/openings. Also, as mentioned in a previous post, the Allied Full Cushioned trucks were prone to problems and banned from interchange. Some RRs replaced the trucks so they could run them at passenger train speeds. IIRC, the Burlington replaced their’s with A-3 ride control trucks. I don’t think it would be uncommon to find an occasional one show up in a freight train, maybe handling an expedited shipment.
Ricky
My personal experience with those sleepers was as a Pvt. (Aviation Cadet to be) with the U.S. Army Air Corps on a movement from New Orleans (out of Keesler Field) to Los Angeles enroute to Minter Field in Bakersfield for Basic Training in the Stearmans.
My older brother had enlisted a few years berfore me and advised me never to volunteer for anything in the Army except typing and KP. The mess Sgt. was happy to have me on board. Going from Tucson to Phoenix, I sat on the floor in the open door with my feet hanging down and leaning on the safety chain across the door opening. When we stopped at Phoenix for fuel and water, I looked out and said to myself "What a cow town, who in the world woulld want to live here.
I never dreamed I would live here one day and love it.
And by the way the food was great. I ate a whole 16 x 24 inch pineapple upside down cake.
At first, no railroads bought them. They were owned and operated by Pullman. It was only after the war that Pullman sold them to railroads, who converted them to baggage cars and such. The Monon used one as sort of a second caboose on the front of some trains, calling it a “rider car”. It apparently carried less-than-carload shipments.
While Pullman operated these cars, they were owned by the government. They were purchased by the “Defense Plant Corporation” and most were offered/sold by the “War Assets Administration, Office of General Disposal” in 1947.
Ed
I saw a troop car back in the summer of 1984. I was on my way back home to Houston from a Lone Star Region NMRA convention in San Antonio TX, when I stopped in Brookshire, 30-40 miles west of Houston, on the Katy rail line. There was a troop car sitting on a siding with some other MOW cars. It still had its Allied trucks. I took some pictures (slides) of it, which I still have somewhere!
David
Central Of Texas Lines
No one has yet answered my question as to how these cars were operated. Were they cut into regular passenger trains, arun s seperate sections of regular passenger trains, or did they run as stand alone extra trains. Does anyone have that information.
I’ve seen many examples of troop trains running as extras. They wouldn’t cut them into scheduled trains or as separate sections because there was no reason for the troop cars to make any stops like the regular trains. Or to travel as “fast”. Or “slow”. And, of course, all you need is a couple of guys getting off to “stretch their legs”…
I did see a photo, however, that claimed some cars were being deadheaded in a regular train, so I guess my just stated opinion is starting to fall apart a bit. So, if you want to run a couple of those troop sleepers in your “regular” train, there’s the excuse. I would think they’d tend to be placed in the “lesser” trains (as opposed to the 20th Century)
Now, not all troop movements were in troop trains. I’ve got photos of my dad (and associates) riding in the baggage car of the Colorado Eagle during the war. No reason for a troop train for 12 guys.
Ed
Good information, Ed. My parents were married on the Marine Corps base in Corpus Christi in November of 1944 and their “honeymoon” consisted of the train ride to San Francisco on the SP for his overseas deployment. I never thought to ask if his whole unit rode that train or if he was given leave or special permission to take a commercial train because he had just got married.
No way the military is going to let a wife ride a “full standard” troop train with her new husband (except maybe in a movie with Bob, Bing, and Cutey). The happy couple most likely scraped the fare up themselves; though, on occasion, Uncle would/could come through. Your dad might even have gotten some sort of travel voucher for himself that he could “add” to. In a sense, the gov’t didn’t much care how you got there; you just damn well better be there. That gracious exception tended more towards officers than enlisted–perhaps your father was one of the former?
Don’t forget: “There’s the right way, the wrong way, and the Army (Marine) way.”
Ed
Production of troop sleepers and kitchens started slowly and didn’t really ramp up until mid to late 1943. From 1944 to 1946 it was possible to see solid or nearly solid trains of them, especially when whole brigades or divisions were on the move with all of their equipment. I once saw one mounted beside the tracks and being used for storage at Emigrant Gap on the SP’s Donner Summit lime. It had the windows plated over and was painted light gray.
There’s currently being discussed on the Passenger Car List on Yahoo the concept of following sections. From reading this, it would seem that troop trains could have been operated as either extra trains or as following sections of scheduled trains. The troop trains would have visually looked the same (except for perhaps the white or green indicators on the loco).
The bad part of running a troop train following a scheduled train is that it must keep up (and slow down) with the scheduled train. Or at least make the attempt. The good part is that the troop train can kinda “sneak” through the railroad sort of as if it wasn’t there–running 4 trains as one is less disruptive than running them separately.
Ed
I think part of the purpose of these cars (particularly having their own kitchen cars) was that they could be used to move men in a train along with their equipment - like a tank unit might have a train with flatcars loaded with the tanks, with the troop sleepers hauling the men of the unit. Most troop trains I’ve seen pics of were using regular railroad cars. KIM the railroads were not under direct gov’t control during WW2, a troop train was running on a private railroad using their locomotives and other equipment.
Troop trains using regular passenger cars would be kinda like a “special” train, as was common then - a company or civic organization in the steam era might in effect rent a train from a railroad to take it’s people to a particular city for a big meeting or convention. The government during the war would coordinate with a railroad to provide cars for X no. of men to take them from point A to point B on such and such a date. The RR would provide the engines, cars and crewmen.