Its been a while since I posted an update about my recently purchased used layout. After taking in all the advise about rewiring the layout, I gathered the materials needed, and started to work on the layout. I have all of the feeders in place on the first block. I tested all the sections of track, and the new feeders. Everything is working well. However I did run into issues with the turnouts shorting out. So here goes.
I do not know the brand of the turnouts.
The turnouts are soldered with the track, they are not gapped, thus the power is feed through the track.
I did not add any new feeders to the turnouts.
The short occurs when the point is is turned in the direction shown in the picture. (please note I am testing this with power being fed from the track which appears on the top).
If the bottom picture shows that you’ve connected the power feeds to the point end of the turnouts, that is correct.
I’m not sure what you mean when you say that you have the power feeds connected to the upper track.
You only show a portion of the track layout. Is that turnout connected to a stub ended siding, or is there another turnout not shown to the left so that a passing siding is formed? If there is another turnout then you will have to gap each turnout at the frog. Depending upon where you have the power feed, you will need another power feed to each of the now electrically isolated track sections between the two turnouts.
In the first picture, the two pairs of rails are shown branching from the turnout. The top pair is where I am currently testing the power feed. I am using a pair of alligator clips that are connecting to the feeders underneath the table. I dont have the bus set up yet, so am I currently testing one section at a time. I should clarify that both pairs of track will have a power feed once I tie it into the electrical bus.
The tracks end to the left of each pair of track. I am not sure about the correct term but I think they are both spurs? To the right of the turnout, is another turnout that is soldered to the one in the photo.
Here are a few more photos. Once again, I am planning on having a power feed on each section of track. currently the power is fed through the section of track the loco is sitting on.
The photo above shows the table that makes up this block. Their are five tables in the entire layout. I am rewiring everything before I connect all the tables together.
The photo above shows the points positioned without the short
The photo above shows the points positioned with the short.
I have this book, as well as a few others. The best information I have found is on a website called Wiring for DCC. The gentleman who runs the site has an array of diagrams for wiring turnouts. However, I am still having a hard time understanding what is going on with this turnout. As Maxman mentioned I think I need to gap the frog, and feed power independent to the frog. The goal for me is to keep the existing track work. I could replace the switches with DCC freindly turnouts, but If I can fix what is in place, I would rather do that.
Those are Shinohara turnouts. Non DCC friendly but workable in several ways. One way is to take out the points that are joined by the bars and make new ones with hinges and an insulated throw bar. Then cut insulating gaps in the frogs before and after the V. The other way is to just cut insulating gaps after the frog V and hope you do not run the turnout or derail on the points.
Those are called “power routing” turnouts. Likely Shinohara or early Walthers (made by Shinohara, surprise). You should feed power from the “points” end ( the end where the existing feeders appear to be). The turnouts should send power to the track the points are set for, and the other track should be “dead”. So, let’s say you run a loco in the siding, and “throw the switch”, assuming there’s no other gaps and wiring, the siding will go dead and you can run other trains elsewhere. I’ll see if I can dig up or make a diagram to show this more clearly.
You can gap the rail beyond the frog (only one gap is needed, on the “frog” rail) and add an on-off switch to turn the power on and off. This isn’t necessary unless the contacts at the points aren’t doing their job, in which case you’ll probably want to add the power-routing electricals anyway.
According to the Wiring for DCC page, I have type 3.
I will need to gap the turnout. Place feeders to the outside rails with the correct polarity. Then use a power routing unit on the frog (hex frog juicer).
Does this sound right? If so… no big deal. I do have a couple of questions. Where should the power be fed to the frog? Should the frog and points be considered one electrical piece? This is how I understand the diagram.
Yuo, those are poer routing turnotus and you will need to cut gaps beyond the frogs so power is fed in only fromt he point side. Bet if you clip your power leads to the space between the two turnout points in the middle, your loco will run. But only when the points are thrown to the siding, if you lien it straight ahead, the loco will not run on that siding, however if you put it on the other track it will run.
Once you have gaps, you can install additional feeders beyond the gap to keep the section powered at all times.
OK, so based on what everyone has advised, I have made a couple of diagrams showing how to potential cut and power the turnouts. Green denotes gaps. Red and blue denote where power feeds would be placed.
Option 1. Isolate the turnouts, then place power feeds near the points. The frog is then power routed.
Option 2. Isolate the turnouts, and cut gaps beyond the frog. Place power feeds near the points and on the isolated gaps to the left of the frog.
If I go with option 2. where should the gaps be cut to the left of the frog. How much distance?
I just realized that even though I can cut and wire the turnouts to operate on DCC. They will always have the potential to create a short if a loco returns into the turnout and the points are not in the correct position. Is their any way to avoid this?
Option 1 is all you need. With additional feeders to the left of the green gaps so the siding has power.
As for shorting when running into an incorrect switch, well, no, not really, without major surgery on the turnouts to truly isolate the frogs. But so what? If you run a misaligned turnout and it doesn’t short at the frog, it will short when it derails.
This section of Allan Gartner’s site has instructions for modifying the old SHonohara turnouts to be completely DCC friendly - as you can see, not very easy to accomplish all this with a turnotu already in place and ballasted. But it’s not completely necessary.
The peco website says that unlike DC power supplies, since DCC supplies can power multiple engines, a short with DCC can cause harm.
is this really that important, and if it is, isn’t the auto light bulb a simple enough protection? If you have good enough trackwork, should this be a problem?
I am not sure if the question is directed at me. But I guess that’s what I am shooting for. A non dcc friendly turnout that works well with my dcc system. So I am fixing the track work.
Instead of the the bulb that you mentioned I am going to place a NCE CP6 that basically is a series of six bulbs on a circuit board. The board allows you to divide an area into six districts. I am planning on using one on each table. I am hoping that will give me enough protection from melting my engines.
On another note, I just finished gaping all the turnouts and placing feeders on every section of track. Time to start setting up the BUS an hooking everything up.
