Question on operations

Model Railroader Prototype information for the modeler
1

I have a small town on one side of the room, a small yard on the other side.

In my world, the ‘‘big RR’’ would drop off cars for the town, [ 6 to 10 cars ] my short line crew would then take them to town and deliver as needed.

1, Would the cut ofcars dropped off, be in any order, or just random. Lets say there were two or more cars for the same customer, would thouse cars be together?

2, Would the local crew, arange the cars in any order before going to town ? or would they just grab the cut and deal with it when they get there?

thanks

2

I don’t know what era you are modelling, but, in general, from experience in the 1960s to the 1980s, the “big RR” would be interchanging the cars to the shortline so the cars would not be in any particular order. Once the cars were delivered to the shortline it would be up to the shortline (most likely the conductor) as to where and how to arrange the cars. The shortline crew should know the easiest way to set up the work.

3

Hopefully Larry (Brakie) will chime in here, but I’d think that the cars would likely be in random order - the “big RR” probably wouldn’t have time to block them appropriately for delivery, or may not even know what the preferred order might be.

The local’s crew might re-arrange the order of the cars if it were advantageous, but they would also know if there’s no advantage in doing so.

Perhaps if you ran an operating session where the cars arrived in town in no particular order, then tried to distribute them appropriately, you’d discover if it worked or if re-arranging them was worthwhile.

There’s a photo thread HERE which mentions a similar situation, but I should note that the issue is not resolved.

All of the towns on my layout (DC operations, so only one train moving at any time) have a passing track as part of the line through town, so run-around moves for trailing-point spots are easily accomplished. Most of the trains “work” several industries in a town, then move on to the next town for more of the same.
While having cars blocked appropriately might be handy (and could be done in “staging”) it’s not really necessary, at least on my layout.

Wayne

4

Uncle Butch, the cars delivered by the big RR would be in the order they were received in by the Big RR crew. If the two or more cars for a single consignee were from the same shipper, they may arrive in a group, all coupled together. If they come from different shippers, they could be anywhere in the cars received by the Big RR, and the Big RR crews don’t know your track layout or spots at your industries and most importantly Big RR does not pay its crews to switch or pre block cars for your RR. Your folks know your railroad and, would a better job of setting up their consist.

Your folks would probably have to dig out any cars going to industries in Town before heading off to switch your industrial area. The Town cars, if any, may be switched by another crew or by the original crew before they go to switch the industrial area or, switch them when they get back. The number of cars and the distance between the two points will determine how they would be handled.

Where the crew decides to shuffle their cars into the best order for delivery and pickup, depends on the physical layouts (track layout, curvature, gradients, etc) of the end points of the line.

5

Random, whatever order they were switched into the classification track in the “big RR” yard. The big RR is under no obligation to block cars.

Plus cars are generally blocked by station not industry. Since all the cars are going to one station (what you are calling a “town”), even if its all one railroad, they wouldn’t block the cars by industry when set out for the local.

Dealer’s choice. Whatever’s easiest for them. Depends on how much room they have at either place.

6

To answer your question based on my short line visits. Here is my observations.

The cars would be switched into industry order before the crew left their yard. This places the needed cars in working order and makes the job easier.

Recall the same procedures that the big boys use would be followed, air hoses coupled,hand brakes set and release during industry switching since short lines follow General Code Of Operating Rules(GCOR).

You may want to glance through the GCOR in order to gain a general idea:

http://www.cwrr.com/Lounge/Reference/rules/title.html

As a side note I found the majority of the short lines I visited was a frendily lot and wallowed me to roam the property once I signed the needed release forms. In return I stayed well out of the crew’s way as they went about their work.

On the other hand at some short lines I visited I was told I could take all the photos I wanted from public land and to stay off the property or face trespass charges.

7

Thanks guys; for reaffirming [?] my thinking and reasoning.

appreciate it.

8

Yip, the BI&G RR would sort them according to the yard or railroad that they would be delivered to.

The yard master if there was one, or the conductor if there was not a yard master, would block the train the way they wanted.

They would not block by tow, but by the siding that they were to go to.

Here in Richardton, there are three sideings to be worked, but actually two of them are industries.

Red trail energy receves loaded grain (corn) cars, and empty tank cars, they ship empty hopper cars and loaded ethanol cars. Empties in or out could be handled by the local. Corn coming is would likey be on the local, since they do not come in so many at a time, but are frequently held here until BNSF wants to pull them out. BNSF has to pay the drayage on them no matter where they are left.

Ethanol going out would be a full unit train, so the car knocker from Dickinson would come down and inspect the train before the locomotive and the road crew arrives.

The Halliburton sand plant receivers covered hoppers of frack sand usually behind CP power since it originates on the old Soo line in Wiskonsin. BNSF will usuzlly pull the empties away before the next full train arrives. The CP power will have to go to Dickinson to fetch them.

Finally, there is the team track which could receive and dispatch cars on the local.

And so drayage is another factor that must be kept in mind.

SOMEBODY owns those railroad cars and they want to be paid for them no matter what. Drayage is the fee a railroad must pay to another railroad or other car owner for all the time that a car is on their tracks.

If BNSF dropos of a load of say salamander eggs at the team track, they will charge the consignee for each day the cars sits there being unloaded. They do not want to swallow extra charges just because you have not loaded or unloaded the consignment.

So even the shippers, the industries, or the local station master

9

I would assume two cars that were picked up at company A by the big railroad and were going to company B on the shortline would tend to be together the whole way. Two flatcars loaded with lumber from a sawmill located on the big railroad and going to a lumber yard on the shortline for example. Can’t see any reason why you’d split them up in that situation, so I’d think they’d be together the whole way.

10

“Drayage” has nothing to do with rail cars. Drayage is when a trailer is moved from a ramp to another location or customer (or vice versa).

Lion is confusing car hire with drayage. Car hire is a charge that is some combination of time or mileage that is paid to the owner of the car for its use. Railroad cars tend to be mostly time (an hourly rate) and private cars tend to be primarily mileage. Back in the steam era car hire was called “per diem” because it was a daily rate, in more modern times it became an hourly rate. Back in the steam era, per diem was a big deal because it was charged based on where the car was at midnight, so railroads tried to get rid of as many cars before midnight as possible. Once it became hourly, there wasn’t that big of push. In addition as the national fleet includes more private cars now, car hire isn’t as big a deal since the rate is more driven by mileage.

Car hire rates are highly dependent on era. 30 years or so ago, car hire rates were a few cents a mile and a dollar or two a day.

That’s something completely different again. That’s "demurrage’ which is a completely different charge. Demurrage times and charges varies depending on era. Generally a shipper has 24 hours to load and a consignee has 48 hours to unload a car. Demurra

11

You’d be surprised - cars get split up a lot. I always thought it was because a train got broken up in a yard along the way (block couldn’t fit on one track) and got reassembled in a different order. Or a block got rearragned to bury a hazmat or the like.

12

While they could remain together the whole way, there are lots of reasons they could get split:

  • Bad orders
  • Double overs
  • Reduce for tonnage or footage
  • Cuts while switching
  • Industry doesn’t order both in
  • Room in the industry track
  • Bunching
13

My operating plan is similar to the OP’s.

What I know from reading various sources is that the Big RR would simply block the cut of cars destined for the shortline at its yard, in no particular order, then drop them off at interchange. Never thought about it, but I assume they would simply keep cars that are coupled together from the shipper in tact since it would be the easiest move.

My short line has a small yard by which the loco will sort the cars before heading off to the town. I suppose it could simply skip that move and pull them to the town and then switch them appropriately at that time, depending upon how they came previously arranged.

I wonder how it is handled if the independent short line was, instead, a branch line of the Big RR. Would Big RR switch the cars to be in order for its own branch line, or would the operation be the same as if it was an independent short line?

14

The big railroad would most likely build a block for the yard at the junction point in no particular order. The yard there would switch cars into station order for points on the branch.

The UP builds a couple of manifests going to the Chicago area daily. There are intermediate yards at Boone, Marshalltown, Beverly (Cedar Rapids), and Clinton IA. These yards handle cars going to industries at these locations and for connections to other trains going to points off this route and locals originating at these locations. For example, the Boone block will have cars for multiple stations that will continue on locals. North Platte doesn’t build the block in individual station order for those locals. They lump them all together and let Boone yard further switch them into their proper order. Boone also builds a train going to a yard in Eagle Grove IA that handles locals for the northwest Iowa grain lines. Boone yard lumps them all together and the Eagle Grove yard sorts them for those locals.

Cars that travel in small groups between shipper and receiver, like ethanol tank cars going between producer and smaller eceivers that don’t take a whole train at a time, may tend to stay together. Others coming from all points get aggregated and sent towards their ultimate destination. Their order being refined the closer it gets to that final destination.

Jeff

15

Most of the switch crews I worked with did their detail switching for industry when they go to the industry. No sense in having to switch the same cars twice. If the crew lines up the cars for Acme Industries : 1-2-3-4 but Acme asks for them to be spotted 2-3-4-1, then they will have to reswitch all the cars.

Plus doing a lot of detail switching in the yard takes time, switch engine time and yard lead time. If the local is originating out of a major yard, there will be less detail switching because the yardmaster won’t want the local crew tying up the lead to reblock his 20 car train when the yardmaster has to process 2400 cars a day through the yard. The yard master will let the switch engine get the cars out of his yard to some intermediate point and figure it out there where the local isn’t in the way.

16

I don’t know about today but,both PRR and Chessie(C&O) had a smaller local traffic yard where locals was build in station order. If it wasn’t every conductor I worked with would put his train in industry order since there’s a lot of work involved with each setout and pickup with safety and operating rules to be followed.

As a example every pickup had to be coupled,handbrake released, bleeder valve checked and wheels checked for any forgotten wheel chocks.

Safety rules applied like unlocking the industry switch,checking the points and if he rules stated you relocked the switch or at least replaced the lock in the locking device. Other safety action was to set at least two-three handbrakes on your standing train closed the air valve then uncouple your car(s) to be setout…

As far as short lines they to will put their train in industry order unless their train is shorter then five cars although I seen one short line crew put their three car train in order.

Cherry picking your setout(s) from your train at the industry would require unneeded work and extra moves. No conductor would stand for that.

17

It sometimes happens. Train isn’t always set up great, or crews are short. YOu can mess with it at the yard, or there’s times you have to take it out as is and figure it out later.

Conductor is getting paid; he can cry about it later.

18

Those old line conductors I worked with was set in their ways and they would do what they thought was proper to get the work done. Those old buzzards wouldn’t cry since they got paid for doing their job and as foreman they would get that job done…

The old head conductors that was now yardmasters and trainmaster knew those conductors was in the right.

Back then there wasn’t any college kids with no boots on the ground experience running the show. It was hard back then for experienced young brakeman to please some old those old line muleheaded conductors…

19

Like an old-school trainmaster once said to me “If you guys ain’t complaining(sic), you must be sick!”

The old heads could whine with the best of 'em!

20

The ones I worked whined about muleheaded yardmasters, trainmasters and usless dispatchers…