Hello all,
I recall a recent thread about the current use of cabooses, and some of the answers indicated that they are still used in “shoves”.
Are there rules about how many cars there are in a consist to require a caboose in a shove move? Or, is it about the distance that the shove move must travel?
Just wondering. Many thanks in advance for your input.
Cordially,
Michael Loik
Ben Lomond, CA
michael
csx here in town takes as many cars as needed to switch.the caboose is just used to protect the workers and the crossings.
stay safe
Joe
What I think he is asking, though, is how many cars can they shove without using the caboose? I suspect its more the latter, the number of cars doesn’t really matter (to a point, anyway- if they’re shoving only one car, why bother?), its the distance of the shove that is the important factor.
Yeah, that’s pretty much what I was getting at: number of cars and/or length of the shove.
ML
It’s the distance, not the amount of cars, I believe one mile is the general consensus, and believe me, one mile is a long ways to hang onto the side of a car, it’s tiring.
Calling a caboose a “shoving platform” is so odd.If it walks looks and quacks like a duck it is a duck. So if it looks likes a caboose it is a caboose. Railroads just playing with words.Here in Ohio if they dont have a ‘caboose’ on the rear for a reverse move. They need a man in a company “van” to protect the move. Have a great day! THINK SPRING
If he is driving, he IS NOT protecting the shove. If he cannot see the end of the cut, he is NOT protecting the shove. (Ed , Mookie & Tree know why I get just a little animated about this subject) With that “shoving platform” he has a whistle, a way to dump the air, somewhere to retreat from in case of collision, an alternate light source in the dark (hoping the generator and batteries work, the lavatory facilities usually don’t) and a deck to stand on with both arms free…Go back and look at Nora’s old post about being timed on arm strength and why that is important.[banghead][banghead][banghead]
You may be right than you suspect. Do you remember why GE built the 44 Tonner? Labor agreements and/or safety requirements. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that putting a “caboose” on a train opens up a large group of issues, while calling the same car a “shoving platform” doesn’t. You might find some of the same types of issues involved in the differentiation between a “transfer caboose” and a regular “caboose.”
Our local trainmaster sometimes gets involved in the operation when CSX delivers or picks up where I work. This is all classified “industrial track,” so speeds are always a crawl. The trainmaster will help shuttle the conductor around as needed as trains are built or broken, and will occasionally flag crossings. Most of the track is in plain view, so even if the conductor isn’t riding the end of the push, he can see it. From what I’ve seen, if he can’t is usually isn’t moving, or else the locomotive is pulling, not pushing.
I wasn’t real fond of running that C424 long-hood-forward during my cab ride adventure, due to the limited visibility. Before the Adirondack got a runaround track built at Otter Lake, they would pull their trains south, then pu***hem back north, with someone standing in the vestibule. There was a whistle there for use at the crossings.
Here on the PTRA, if you are shoving in a yard track, you must have either a man riding the point, or on the ground in a position to maintain visual contact of the point, if you are shoving less than half the distance of the track.
If you are shoving over half the tracks distance, a man will be on the point, or on the ground at the opposite end of the track being shoved.
A crew member may ride in a company car or utility van to the end of the track being shoved, but it must be a member of the crew that is shoving the track that provides point protection, and said crew member may not remain in the vehicle during the shove, he must be in a position to maintain a constant visual contact with the leading car of the shove the entire movement…no trainmaster, cab driver, or a member of any other crew may provide another crew with point protection, period.
Shoving into any industry, no matter how many cars being shoved, (1 or 100) a man will ride the point, and stop the movement not less than 150 feet from the end of the track.
If it is required to shove to the end of the industry track, (the remaining 150 feet)the man will dismount, and walk ahead of the movement to the end of the track, stopping the movement no closer than 1 car length (50 feet) from the track bumper, or end of track.
Because shoving is such a major part of what a switching/terminal railroad does, we take it very seriously.
The majority of the industries we work have no place to “stash” a caboose, and no way to run around it, we did away with our crummies a long time ago, they just created more work than they were worth.
I ride at least a mile every day on a shove move,
Don’t mind riding a tank, or a covered hopper, hate boxcars and gons…don’t mind coil cars, depending on who made it.
Ed
Ed: Can you expand onyour preferences a little bit ? Thanks
It is easy to ride a tank…the end platform allows you a small place to stand, and a hand rail to hold onto.
Covered hoppers don’t have an end platform you can ride, they have a crossover, but it doesn’t go all the way to the sides of the car, but the side hand holds are spaced just right for a man to get a good stance and a good hand hold, plus the open end design allows you to face forward and change position easily.
Box cars mean you are holding on to the side ladder, and riding in the stirrup at a odd and uncomfortable position, and your hands tire very quickly, you cant “hook” your arm behind it, so you end up holding yourself up with one or the other hand, and as each hand tires, you switch off…
Open top gons are the same, the ladders are not designed for any long ride, and you have the same problems as a boxcar…you can climb to the top of the ladder and hold on to the top of the gon’s lip, but don’t let a officer see you riding there!(danger of a shifting load and a odd stance)
Most coil cars have a wide crossover platform, and deep stirrups, the hand holds are vertical and long, you can get a comfortable three point stance…some have the side walkway, you can ride there too, holding on to the hand rail that runs down the side of the covers.
No matter where your ride, you can not violate the “end plane” of the car body, ever.
For a tank, that means you can not put yourself on the cross over platform and have any part of your body sticking in past the body of the tank…think about it and it will make sense.
If you look at the cars mentioned, you will see that some have the stirrup, hand holds and other safety appliances in a flat vertical plane, you can ride them easily…others have the stirrup under slung or set in at a odd angle, which means you ride with your feet closer to the center line than your upper body, you are leaning out all the time, and tire easily.
As long as I can stand “up” straight, it isn’t that bad.
Do this as a
Our night job every trip has a two mile reverse move to access an industry. No shove cars are used on this and I don;t ever want to see one as it would make more work. I will say that riding a RBOX car w/the short grab irons, lantern in one hand shining it so you can see a little ahead of the movement and radio in the other hand is not the best of conditions. As long as the HO codes are being payed, I have no gripes.
more on Eds point.matt and i went to fostoria today.the conductor for ns was hanging on as he crossed the c&O and the B&O dimonds.they had to move fast to get to the mill because csx had trains to get through to willard.
stay safe
joe
To add to Sammys post…the caboose, or what ever you want to call it, creates a lot of work.
You have to have a place to put it, before you shove into an industry…you have to plan a extra two or three moves to figure out where to put it, how to run around it, or how to get it back on the rear end of the train.
Last time I used one, we just gave up, cut it in behind the motor and took it back with up there…would have required a wye move and a shove back into a really cruddy siding to get it on the rear.
Nothing in the rules says I can’t drag a un-occupied steel frame caboose ahead of a bunch of empties…[:D]
Now, all that said, depending on the local union work contract, some roads require a caboose, or shoving platform on moves over a certain distance, or under special circumstances.
Ed