I am now working on the wiring schematics for my permanent layout and was wondering about adding TMCC for control of conventional locos.
I have ended up with 12 isolated blocks on my layout. I was curious if TMCC might help simplify the wiring and running of conventional locos on this layout.
For the normal conventional setup I would run two throttles, and have the blocks controlled by 12 SPDT toggles. These toggles would allow any given block to be powered by either throttle A or B (or have the block turned off) as the engine moves around the layout. This setup minimizes the chances of the engine and cars straddling blocks powered by each throttle at the same time.
My understanding is that to run conventional locos under TMCC I would need three pieces of equipment:
CAB-1 Remote Controller (to control the setup)
TMCC Command Base (to relay CAB-1 signals)
A Powermaster (to control track voltage)
Is this correct?
Since the Powermaster controls the voltage to the track, does that mean that I would still need to create multiple blocks or “power districts” if I wanted to have independent control over multiple conventional locos running at once? Say I have one loop with a siding and wanted to run two trains independently on this setup. Would the loop have to be one power district and the siding a second power district?
If I understand this correctly, I would still be creating 12 isolated blocks, but each block would be controlled by a Powermaster instead of throwing a toggle switch.
So the conclusion I arrive at is that while I could run conventional trains using TMCC, it would cost a lot more because I would be purchasing 12 Powermasters instead of 12 SPDT toggles.
YES ! However if you could use TPCs instead of powermasters, that will give you a little better control for postwar engines. I use a few toggle switches for tracks I may want to park a set of engines on, & that will cut all power to those engines, command or conventional.
As John mentions, go with the TPC. I am not an expert by any stretch, but I did buy Neil’s book on Command Control and it does a good job of explaining yours and many other issues. For me, it is well worth the money as it seems we are about at the same point of starting to wire our layouts.
Dennis.
PS:, from the book, it recommends going to Digital Dynamics and Train America Studios web sites as they have some good information on command control.
TPC’s have a number of advantages over a PowerMaster but they are a little more expensive. You can assign a TPC an ENG number instead of a TR number and save TR’s for lashups. You also have finer control over the voltage, 80/200/400 steps vrs 32 for a PowerMaster. You may want to look at BPC’s (Block Power Controllers) as an alternative to toggle switches. If you go to the CoilCoupler Site, www.coilcouplers.com, there are interactive tutorials on how to use/setup TMCC and Lionel does have all of the current manuals available on line in PDF format.
The properly rated items for wiring a conventional layout do add up. Then there is the building of a control board. So I started wondering, “Could this conventional control be done with TMCC, and what would that cost and entail?”
Chuck, your mention of “Block Power Controllers” was something I had forgotten about. That is heading more in the direction I was thinking about - something to control blocks without having to purchase 12 PowerMasters or TPCs. I’ll read through the manual.
In general terms, to accomplish what you want you will need the CAB Remote and the Command Base. They generally come as a set. Now, again generally speaking, a TPC [300 or 400 watt] is used to run conventional equipment on a layout. Choose the wattage, depending on size/wattage of what you intend to run in your consists.
Powering TMCC with what sounds like a PW ZW…if this is correct, you will need TPC cable set to connect the transformer to the TPC.
You then need get BPCs. These are Block Power Controllers. They act much like the SPDT switches you describe. You can connect 4 blocks to each BPC. It is all on the Lionel site which is really good to see how it works.
The connectivity works like this========ZW, via the cable set, connects to the TPC. The TPC connects to the each of the 4 BPCs. Each BPC connects to the track block.
Depending on how you wired your layout…one common i would hope [say black]…the bpc’s all connect to the same common. Each power wire should be color or labeled so you can trace your wiring. blue, green etc …there are 12 colors you can get… one colored power wire and one black wire go from the bpc to each block.
The Command base connects to the TPC and to each BPC to provide the data stream. You assign each block a number…you use the CAB-1 to activate blocks.
You need also think about power surges. … lots written in this forum on the subject. Fuses/breakers/TVS/Power Lockons…the choice depends on your comfort level with electrical wiring and your budget.
Even though you are running conventional, you may some time get a more sophisticated engine and you will need protect it. The TPC will do a lot of the work keeping the voltage across blocks consistent, but there is always the risk that a car can stradle a block where the voltage is different and spikes ensue. Be safe, not sorry. Again, you may expand the power supply from a
[#ditto] to the above. When I went with the TPC, it opened up a new world for conventional engines with remote control. I like “fine tuning” the speed [voltage] with the brake and boost buttons. Also, my air whistles seem to blow better.
Track Power Controllers are much better for conventional operation than Lionel’s Original Power Master. TPCs will allow you to operate both Lionel and MTH Locomotives.
In Conventional Mode you will not need the Train Master Command Control Base if you have a conventional Loco. The base system is PowerMaster-PowerHouse-CAB-1. TMCC is the add on to the Train Master System for Command Control equipped units.
Thank you for all the replies. They have been very helpful.
The Block Power Control device appears to be the key that allows TMCC to function the same way as a conventional layout without having to purchase a PowerMaster or TPC for each block.
I did find one out of date point in the PowerMaster manual.
On pages 2 & 8 of the PowerMaster manual it says that if one is running conventional locos on a layout with multiple blocks, then a PowerMaster is needed for each block. It doesn’t appear the manual has been updated to reflect the addition of the Block Power Control unit to the TMCC line.
While TMCC control of conventional trains introduces some interesting features, it is not the right time for me to add it.
I greatly appreciate everyone’s comments and thoughts.
No problem. In Fact, thank you for asking a timely question for myself and I am sure several others. I am going to be going with TMCC, but with a very large conventional roster.
Just a slight twist to consider. The new ZW, Command Base, Remote for running conventional. Great slow speed conventional performance and very easy. Plus you retain the option for handle running. I think someone once said the new ZW has 4 powermasters in it.
Four improved PowerMasters. These do not have the problems with PS-1 and early QSI products. 32/64/96 speed steps when used with a CAB-1/Command Base. Only drawback is that these have to be designated as TR’s. The TPC can be used as an ENG or a TR.
I am planning on running conventional locos with TMCC as well.
While researching what I will need I found a mention that the SC-2 could act like a SPST switch an allow for turning off/on power to a siding or spur. Just wire through the AUCC 1 or 2 and use the Toggle On/Off side. I will need this capability and hope to not have any manual toggles.
I have 2 SC-2 controlers that I use for controling switches and accesorries. If you were to program an SC-2 for accessories use only it would give you 6 momentary SPDT controled by AUX1 and 6 on/off SPDT controled by AUX2.
The Lionel wedsite has the manual for the SC-2. Goto customer service and you can download the manual. Page 19-24 has more detail about the wiring of assesories that you should be able to use for sidings.
Remember the SC-2 needs fixed voltage so check out page 6 for powering it.
I have read the SC–2 manual several times. What I hope to accomplish is to run entire RR using only the CAB-1. The manual has an example of how to hook up an Uncoupling track which shows a power supply hooked to the outside (Common) rail and the power hooked through the SC-2 to the center rail. I think replacing the Uncoupling track with a regular track and attaching the common to the outside rail and power to the inside rail I would be able to turn power off and on to the track. Since I will only running conventional trains I will need to be able to vary the voltage and hope to do this with the red knob on the CAB-1. This does raise a question of grounding. I
TMCC is most effective when there is a single Common running thru the entire layout. The manuals from Lionel wouldn’t show that. They deal with meaningful but simplistic wiring challenges. The TMCC product mix has a lot of the alphabet - most are just spst switches with some expensive packaging. An OTC can run accessories and an ASC can run Uncoupler tracks, an ASC can control power blocks, the wiring might be slightly less obvious, but with some thought it can be done. They all have one thing in common, they all use the ACC NN code to tell TMCC Command base to turn something on or off.
Every layout is wired with slight differences and uses the electronics available with evern more differences… SO, if you want to use a SC device as a 6 or 12 ganged SPST in a nice package, you can. At $70 it could be expensive if you only need 4 or 5 sidings to turn on or off. Keep repair-ability in mind as well. Much easier to fix toggles that don’t work then find which connection in an SC is bad…read about SCs on the forum, they aren’t without issue.
There should be only ONE common in a TMCC world, going back to the PowerSource and all of the PowerSources you use should be PHASED and the common connected to each other. The manual for an SC2 may not want to go thru this, but if you read all of the TMCC materials on all of their products [available on line at Lionel.com] and the forum posts, you will see that one common works.
Hope this helps…Running the entire layout with the CAB-1 is quite a goal.
Thanks for the reply and clearing up the Common issue. I have read the TMCC manuals I though I would need I have now read the ASC manual and low and behold page 15 answers how to wire sidings in a conventional layout. Thanks.
However, this raises a another question. What does Lionel mean by “Power Supply”? An example might clarify my question. I have a Z Transformer and am planning on the D + U terminals to power the main line. Using B+ U to power 022 switches. Are these combations what Lionel is calling “Power Supply” or do I have to have a separate box for each function?
I also have a V Transformer which I can use if I need more power. FYI both of the transformers have been refurbished by LHS technician, cords, brushes, etc replaced. Since I will be running in conventional only do I need any additional surge protection?
Thanks for your help. Sorry for the delay in responding but, I had a little problem with the new web site. It appears to be fixed now.
The transformers will need modern era protection if you are using them to feed PowerMasters or TPC’s or any modern electronic equipment (e.g. SC-2’s). It’s great that you ha them serviced/inspected but these were meant to be used with PW equipment that can handle abuse.
Each output block on a Z or a V could be considered as “a” power supply. aka a ZW could be looked at as four power supplies BUT they tend to be wired internally such that the current distribution will flow where it is needed. You can adjust the voltage for each variable output terminal on a ZW but you can not easily direct the amps to a specific post. If you use truely separate power supplies, all of the current available for that specific power supply can be used on that set of terminals.
Also note that the PW equipment’s power rating is for power consumed by the device, not power available for use. A PW ZW has a PW rating of 275 watts but it can only put out a sustained rating of about 180 watts. Modern supplies are classified by power available at the track/accessory terminals, not how much electricity the device can consume.