While renovating a spare room to become my train room I set up a neat little layout on the floor. If I can figure out how to post the diagram from My Pictures (it is not a link) it would be easier to understand my questions and for me to understand your answers. I’ll try to describe it the best I can given my limited command of the model rail roading language.
Here goes, I’ll give the basic concepts only. It is 2 loops, one inside the other with a crossover to connect the 2 and a dead-end spur (there is a passing siding and 2 other spurs off the inner loop but they are not involved in the question, I don’t think). Here’s how it is set up going left to right from the “bottom” of the outer loop:
A straight track enters a left-hand switch on the outer loop, the switch is accepted by another left-hand switch on the inner loop which leads into 3 straight tracks on the inner loop leading into a right-hand switch which is accepted by another right-hand switch on the outer loop allowing travel back on to the outer loop. Off the last right-hand switch on the inner loop is another right-hand switch which creates a dead-end spur going right to left. (Boy I hope I can figure out how to post that picture)
Here are the questions/issues:
Shouldn’t I be able to wire this for 2 train, independent operation? If so, how? And, still have the non-derailing features of the switches? I tried replacing the center rail pin to fiber between the switches and that did not work.
If I want to run single operation what do I have to do? When I initially set it up and connected my 2 wires to the outer loop I got nothing on the inner loop unless I ran a wire from the outer rail of the inner loop to an outer rail of the outer loop. I want to keep the non-derailing features of the switches.
I tried several variations of metal pins and fiber pins. Right now the non-derailing feature does not work on the first left-hand switch on the inner loop and I can run only one tr
What will help you is to put a small section of straight track in between the two switches and run the common wire to the outside rails of the straight track, two inch section should work, as it sounds like you are loosing the common rail power to activate the non-derailing feature on the 022 switches. If the switches are next to each other and feeding off from either the straight or curved side or two curved sides, after the throw point of the switch this is a common thing to happen with all Lionel non-derailing switches.
What are you using for power(transformer/transformers)?
Setting up as you describe, you have 3 fiber pins at the crossover with two left switches, so no power will go past this juncture of inside & outside loops. This is fine, & will preserve the non-derailing function of both 022’s. You just need to add a lockon to the inner loop, either in parallel with the outer loop for one transformer/control of the whole layout, or in phase with the outer loop from your other power supply so that the outside rails of both loops are “common” for independent control of both.
Keep the fiber pins in only the control rails of the 022’s. You need them there.
The wire you added to connect the outside rails of the two loops was the right thing to do.
At the crossover, there should be insulating pins in all three rails: in the center rail for the isolation to allow you to power the loops separately, and in each of the outside rails to allow each turnout’s anti-derailing feature to work. (You don’t need to add any track there.)
Do not simply connect a transformer (or one output of a dual transformer) to one loop and another transformer (or the other output of the dual transformer) to the other loop. Connect whichever side of each transformer you want to use as the common (or the common of the dual transformer) to the outside rails.
Then get two single-pole-double-throw-center-off switches. Connect the center terminal of each switch to the center rail of one of the loops. Connect one outer terminal of each switch to the variable output of one transformer (or to one of the variable outputs of the dual transformer) and the other outer terminal of each switch to the variable output of the other transformer (or to the other variable output of the dual transformer).
Now you can control each loop from one or the other transformer output or shut it off completely. When running between loops, be sure to power both loops from the same transformer output. With two separate transformers, not doing this may result in arcing, inductive voltage spikes, and burned out wiring in cars or locomotives with multiple pickups, if the voltages are not nearly identical or the transition short. With a dual transformer, it may also burn up the transformer or your wiring, since the circuit breaker of postwar transformers will not trip from the fault current.
Thanks, let me see if I have this right. I’m using a PW ZW so I’d like to use the two outside controllers, for whatever reason I’m blanking on whether they are A & B or not, so let’s just go with this anyway.
First, do I leave the wire between the outside rails of the two loops in place even if using the double pole switches?
Do I, A. -connect an outside rail of the inner loop to the U of A and then an outside rail of the outer loop to U of B or, B. -pick one outside rail from either loop and connect it to the U of either A or B? (Part B sounds right if I leave the wire connected to the 2 outside rails as above)
Next, the center terminal of both switches to the center rail of only one loop.
Then, the outer terminal of one switch to the A post and the outer terminal of the other switch to the B post.
Please forgive the next question, when running between loops you’re saying to power both loops by using either the A or B controller. I presume that you put one switch in the off positon (center position) and leave the other “on”?
Again, thanks for your help. I’ve followed your advice in the past and all has worked out. Since my knowledge base of these things is severly limited (almost nil) and I’m a visual person, it takes a little more for me to get it without seeing it ot having a diagram to follow.
U of A, U of B, U of C, & U of D are all “U”, and are all “common”, they are mechanically & electrically connected internally in the ZW.
With the ZW, connect the outside running rails(clip “2” on the lockon) to any “U”.
The “A” & “D” handles are the large ones with whistle/horn control on a ZW. Use the “A” post for one loop(to clip “1”), the “D” post for the other loop(clip “1”).
If you never run a train from one loop to the other, you are good to go at this point.
If you will transfer from one to the other, then you may want to consider Bob Nelson’s scheme for ensuring that you do not create fault currents internal to the ZW, which are not circuit breaker protected(this happens when the two controls are not set at the same level when changing routes/loops). Many, if not most, prewar & postwar operators, myself included(since ~1964), don’t bother with the extra power routing, we just use common sense.
I followed you up until your last sentence. I presume the “extra power routing” you refer to is Bob Nelson’s recommended scheme. What would the wiring routine Lionel used be? Lockon #1 & 2 to A-U for one loop and lockon #1 & 2 to D-U for the second loop?
As an example, Lionel has recommended using different dials on the ZW for the “up” & “down” portions of loops with grades(using fiber pins in the center rails to section out the loop), to maintain nearly constant speed around the layout. This would be a no-no technically, producing the fault currents Bob frequently addressess. But it works…
I’m afraid I screwed up in describing the switches. I meant “single pole double throw”. I’ll try to repeat the instructions, which can now be a little simpler since we know what transformer you’re using:
Connect the outside rails of both loops of the layout (except for the control rails of the turnouts) to the U terminals of the ZW. You can do this by running a wire from one loop’s outside rail to the other’s, then to the transformer, or by running a wire separately from each loop’s outside rail to the transformer. You can use any of the U terminals, which are all connected together just inside the case. All that is important is to get all of these common points connected together.
At the crossover, there should be insulating pins in all three rails: in the center rail for the isolation to allow you to power the loops separately, and in each of the outside rails to allow each turnout’s anti-derailing feature to work. (You don’t need to add any track there.)
I will assume that you will be using the A and D controls to run trains, since these are the ones that have whistle circuits. If you want to use the others for some reason, just substitute the letters into these instructions.
Do not simply connect A to the center rail of one loop and D to the center rail of the other loop. Get two single-pole-double-throw-center-off switches. Connect the center terminal of each switch to the center rail of one of the loops. Connect one outer terminal of each switch to A and the other outer terminal of each switch to D.
Now, using the switch that is wired to each loop’s center rail, you can control that loop from A or D or shut it off completely by putting the switch in the center position. When running between loops, be sure to power both loops from the same transformer output. Not doing this may result in arcing, inductive voltage spikes, and burned ou
Let me start with the switches, please explain this one a little more, Connect the outside rails of both loops of the layout (except for the control rails of the turnouts) to the U terminals of the ZW. Only the bold.
At the crossover. I did what you said and have 3 fiber pins between the 2 switches however, the non-derailing feature works in all directions except on the switch on the inside loop if coming from the outer mainline into the inner loop (on both the entering and exiting side of the crossover). So, if I’m coming from the outer loop into the first switch and the switch on the inner loop to accept the train is not switched properly it does not automatically correct itself. The same goes if I was to back up into the exiting crossover. As I said, I have 3 fiber pins in place there. And don’t forget, there is a right-hand switch creating a spur adjoining the exiting crossover of the inner loop. The switches are operating on fixed voltage from the 20 post on a KW. the 14 post couldn’t power the 5 switches. Any ideas?
I’m trying not to be dense here but, when you say to “connect the center terminal of each switch to the center rail of one of the loops.” I gather you mean to connect the center terminal of one switch to the center rail of the outer loop and then connect the center terminal of the other switch to the center rail of the inner loop?
Lastly, (I think) if I want to isolate other parts of the layout I just repeat the above including connecting the outside rails?
(In an attempt to avoid confusion, I am making a distinction between “turnouts”, which route trains to different tracks, and “switches”, which route electrical current to different wires.)
If there weren’t any non-derailing turnouts, the situation would be very simple: All outside rails would connect, one way or another, to the transformer common, which is the U terminal(s) in this case. But non-derailing turnouts are good things to have, and they rely on using short sections of one of the two outside rails to detect when a train is coming. Those sections are the control rails. Some turnouts put these completely within the confines of the turnout; others put them at the ends of some of the rails. The 022 is one of this latter type. On the straight outlet of the turnout, the control rail is the one that comes from the frog (the V-shaped junction of two rails in the middle of the turnout). On the curved outlet of the turnout, the control rail is part of the complete curved rail, not the shorter curved rail that comes from the frog. Every control rail should have an insulating pin isolating it from whatever other rail in abuts in the layout.
When you create a crossover with two turnouts’ curved outlets facing each other, the control rails of the two turnouts are in opposite outside rails. With both outside rails insulated, there is no way for the transformer current to get from one loop to the other through the outside rails. This is why you need to connect the outside rails together some other way. However, it is possible to create a crossover using, for example, the curved outlet of a turnout in the outer loop facing the straight outlet of a turnout in the inner loop. With the 022 turnout, both control rails will be on the same side of the track; so you can use a metal pin on the other side and not have to make a separate connection to tie the loops’
Thanks for clearing that up, only it created 2 more questions. First, you mentioned that creating the crossover with the 2 curved sections of the turnouts eliminates the non-derailing feature at that point unless you connect the rails in some other way. That’s the first question, how would I do this?
Second, you suggest the you can create a crossover using the curved outlet in the outer loop facing the straight outlet of the inner loop. For some reason I cannot visualize this being possible in my current setup. Are the 2 “crossover setups” of the turnouts inter-changeable or are they 2 different layout designs?
Making the crossover using the curved outlets of the turnouts doesn’t defeat the non-derailing feature. Using the 022 turnouts, it just puts their control rails on opposite sides of the track, so that there is no current path through the crossover for the non-control rails. That is why you would need to provide another path for the outside-rail current from the transformer, either by running a wire between the loops’ outside rails or by wiring both loops’ outside rails back to the common (U) terminal(s) of the transformer.
The alternate crossover design has the curved part of one turnout serving as a curved section in one corner of the inner loop and the straight part of the other turnout serving as a straight section of one side of the outer loop. This makes a more compact crossover than the more obvious way of doing it. With 022 turnouts, this arrangement puts both control rails facing each other, so that the outside rail on the other side of the track can provide the current path between loops.
In fact, you can pack two crossovers into a single corner of the layout using this trick. The entire 90-degree corner of the inner loop comprises the curved sections of two turnouts. I have one of these on my layout, using O27 turnouts, with a Marx O34 curve in the outer loop.
Something you might consider is using a single controller for the two turnouts that make up a crossover. Consider that you will always throw them together, either both lined for the crossover or both lined for the main lines. If you take this suggestion, the two control rails facing each other that I mentioned above don’t even need an insulating pin between them, since they would be connected together to the controller anyway!
Well, this is a coincidence! I just discovered that Roland (USNRol) posted a description and picture of the very “alternate crossover” I was trying to describe above, on a thread titled "Your favorite handy tip her
I used USNRol’s crossover design on one side of my temporary layout and the non-derailing features work great on the turnouts however, another non-derailing issue has come up with a turnout at the other end of the layout. Here’s what the layout looks like:
The turnout at the far left that connects the passing siding the inner loop is the one in question. The two dead-end spurs are isolated with fiber pins in the center rails of the turnout leading to the spur. So for the one at the top it is between the turnout and the curve track and for the lower one it is between the turnout nd the UCS track. The non-derailing feature works on the straight section of the turnout but not the curved section that leads to these spurs.
I’ve tried replacing the center pin in the two turnout with no luck. I’ve tried making a connection between the outside rail of the track after the turnout and the track before it on the mainline also with no luck. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Problem solved, I took the bottom plate off the turnout and lo-and-behold, the connection came loose on the tab to the isolated section of track. Re-soldered it and it works. Oddly enough there were two othe turnouts with the smae issue.
Last question on this subject to anyone whocare to reply. Once I set up the wiring as Bob Nelson suggests, how do the STDP switches work? I mean, each switch has three possible, up/forward, center, down/back. The only one a fully understand is center where power would be off. What would the other positions do?
I’m sure you mean “SPDT”. In the center position, if there is one, all three terminals are disconnected from each other. In one of the other positions, the common terminal is connected to one of the other terminals. In the other position, the common terminal is connected to the other one of the other terminals. On most switches, the common terminal is the one in the middle. It may be marked “C”.
So let’s call the three terminals A, B, and C, with C being the common. Then the three positions are
up: A—C B
middle: A C B
down: A C—B
Although the middle terminal of the switch is called the “common”, that doesn’t mean that it has anything to do with the transformer and layout common, which is the outside rails and the U terminal of the ZW transformer. Instead, the switch common should be connected to the center rail of the block that it is controlling.
Thanks for replying. Yes I did, sorry. Its almost like your my private tutor. You said to use 2 SPDT switches for the crossover layout. If I have 2 then I can throw the switches so that both loops can be controlled by the same throttle on a ZW, either the A or D handle, yes? Or, I can throw them so that A controls one loop and D controls the other. Or yet still, turn the power off to both.
Assuming the wiring scheme you gave me, which position would each switch have to be in to control both loops with the A handle? the D handle? A and D independent of each other? See that’s where I’m lost. Use the up, middle, down locations. Switch #1 is the A handle, switch #2 the D handle.
I know you’ve spent alot of time on this with me and I do appreciate it. I want to get it right and not cause any damage. I’m just lost when it comes to this stuff.
I think I see the problem: You’re thinking that one switch is associated with the A handle and the other switch with the D handle. Not so. One switch is associated with one loop; and the other switch is associated with the other loop.
So let’s call the loops “inside” and “outside”. If you put the outside-loop switch to the A position and the inside-loop switch to the D position, then the A handle controls the outside loop and the D handle controls the inside loop. If you put both switches in, for example, the A position, then the A handle controls both loops (and the D handle controls nothing).
Since the switches are associated with the tracks, not the handles, there is no reason why you can’t have more switches than handles, and divide your track into smaller blocks. Each switch connects its track block to handle A or to handle D, or shuts it off entirely if you put it in the middle position. This way you can control two trains on different parts of one loop. With enough blocks, this would allow you to juggle the trains around to swap loops.
Here’s an example: Suppose you divide the outside loop into three blocks. And suppose that you have been running a freight train on that entire loop from handle A, while you run a passenger train on the inside loop with handle D. You could park the freight train in the outside-loop block farthest from the crossover and switch the two outside-loop blocks nearest the crossover from handle A to handle D. Now you can throw the turnouts and drive the passenger train with handle D across the crossover to one of the outside loop blocks. Then straighten out the crossover and drive the passenger train past the turnout to the other block close to the crossover. Then throw the crossover again and switch the inside loop to handle A, along with the block that the passenger train just vacated, and drive the freight train through t
I think I got it. When you say above tht the outside loop switch is in the A position and the inside loop switch is in the D position do you mean that the switch controling the outside loop is switched upward and the switch controling the inside loop is switched downward? Or would they both be upward?
I think just knowing which position of each switch does what will make things clearer. Is there any harm in me wiring as you describe and playing with the combinations to see what does what?
Mike, the logical thing to do would be to wire all the switches the same, as far as which switch-handle direction connects the block to which transformer handle. The way I would do it (and have done it) is to mount the switches so that their handles move left-right rather than up-down. This way the switch handle position can be made to correspond to which transformer handle is selected, the left one (A) or the right one (D). If you have or want to make a map of your layout on a control panel, you can locate each switch in the middle of the line that represents the block that that switch controls.
