Just when I thought I’d found all the chicago RR I seem to have stumbled on another…
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=485484
Can anyone tell me more about this road or give me links please?
Did it transfer to car floats?
TIA
[8D]
Thanks [8D]
The second link says “On the south side of Chicago, RTW moves coal hoppers from a yard to a loading dock and onto lake boats.”
[%-)] This leaves me confused… the lake is to the North of Chicago and East of Chicagoland. [%-)]
Does this mean that the Lake boats were faily small and travelling along canals that went under all those lift bridges I always see in pics of Chicago RR? This sounds really interesting to me.
Where would the coal have been coming from… and going to please? Naturally this begs the question… would this traffic have still been running in the 1980s?
TIA [:)]
ED. Then I found these links…
- DRS-4-4-1500 362 - Chicago IL - 03/16/75 - {Dennis Schmidt Photo}
- DRS-4-4-1500 363 - Chicago IL - 05/28/77 - {Dennis Schmidt Photo}
- DRS-4-4-1500 364 - Chicago IL - Summer 1979 - ex-D&S - {Kameron Miller Photo}
- DRS-4-4-1500 364 - Chicago - 1979 - ex-D&S unit - {Kam Miller Photo}
- GP-9 1874 - Chicago IL - 5/84 - {Keith Rottman Photo}
- GP-9 1874 - Chicago IL - 5/84 - {Keith Rottman Photo}
which bring me up into the 80s… but no specific location…?
“Lake boats” were not usally small. The Edmund Fitzgerald was a “Lake Boat” and you can look that one up on “Google” to see the kind of Lake Boats plying the Great Lakes. I the Fitz was a modern Lake Boat, being built in the late 1950s. Size was a problem for some Lake Boats as well as ocean liners because the Welland Canal in Canada that goes around the Niagra Falls. I would venture to guess that most Lake Boats stayed in the upper great lakes. Most of the Lake Boats moved coal, iron oar, taconite and other raw products between Chicago, Ashtibula, Detroit, Erie, Gary, Toledo and many other cities with taconite and iron mine outputs coming from Wisconsin with coal from Toledo, Ashtibula, Sandusky and Erie. Some of the “boats” were almost 800’ long, but If memory serves me correct the canallers were limited by the locks which were 678(?) feet long. Once upon a time Toledo Ohio(The Glass Capitol of the World") was the third largest rail center by tons moved because of the Iron Ore and Coal traffic, which mostly went into lake boats, although not by the car load. I believe the C&Os Pierre Marquett division ran the last railroad car ferries up until 1990. I am not sure of the terminus but they did go across Lake Michigan. It is a very interesting history ( Sorry I guess I got a little bit off subject, but it is interesting.)
I do not think many Lake Boats went up the Chicago River or the Sanitary Canal either one at least not in more modern times, but that is a guess.
Chicago is on the Western shore of the lake Michigan which runs North-South by Chicago, and as you probably know was(is) the Railroad Capitol of the US. The Lake is east of Chicago. I think Chicagoland is the modern lexicon for the Chicago Metropolitan Area, but I could be wrong about that, I grew up (as you may have guessed) in Toledo Ohio, on the East side by the big coal and Iron Ore docks. My father worked for the C&O whi
Great stuff Paul [8D] Only a tad off topic but very relevent.
I suppose that if Chicago is West not South of the lake that coal can move across the south side of it to the Lake. That solves that one.
Then again I will now have to get my head round the Chicago and South Shore… [%-)]
Was the Sanitary Canal so called because it was clean and “sanitary” or because of what was put in it? I guess that would be a sanitation canal.
You wonder about winter traffic… I noticed that at least one of the pics caption’s commented tht locos were laid up for the winter. I would guess that they shifted as much coal in summer as they could and stock-piled… anyone know please? Or did the works shut down during the winter as well.
The Canal (narrow) boats around me are a maimum of 72’ long [:I]
[Incidentally I’m thinking of modelling one of this in 4mm/00 - anyone got any ideas or links about how to create the compound curves of the bow and stern]?
This link has the text…
http://www.trainweb.org/vermande/r/rtw.html
This one has another loco tucked up for winter… what are the things on the hood side just in front of the tarpaulin please? They look like some of the things that I’ve seen on remote control locos??? Also, if you look at the rear journal of the front truck it looks like there is some sort of gound connection…??? Would this be some sort of power supply connection for a heater???
Indeed it was! The Edmund Fitzgerald or Big Fitz as it was known was the biggest lake boat ever built, up til it’s time. The ship went down in a fierce winter storm on Lake Superior November 10th, 1975 with the loss of all hands. To this day they don’t really know why, but the two generally accepted theories are that it (1) bottomed out on a shoal and sank bow first, breaking in two as the bow hit the bottom or (2) that it was hit by a rare storm phenomenon known as ‘The Three Sisters’ in which the ship was hit by three huge waves in quick succession and had no chance to recover before capsizing and breaking in two on the way to the bottom. Whichever it was, the crew never had a chance! The ‘Big Fitz’ had a crew of 29. Their names are listed in the Maritime Sailors Cathedral and the bell was rung 29 times, each ring signifying one life lost.
Back on topic.
The lyrics to the song The Wreak of Edmund Fitzgerald
The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead When the skies of November turn gloomy. With a load of iron ore - 26,000 tons more Than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty
That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed When the gales of November came early The ship was the pride of the American side Coming back from some mill in Wisconson As the big freighters go it was bigger than most With a crew and the Captain well seasoned.
Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms When they left fully loaded for Cleveland And later that night when the ships bell rang Could it be the North Wind they’d been feeling. The wind in the wires made a tattletale sound And a wave broke over the railing And every man knew, as the Captain did, too, T’was the witch of November come stealing.
The dawn came late and the breakfast had to wait When the gales of November came slashing When afternoon came it was freezing rain In the face of a hurricane West Wind When supper time came the old cook came on deck Saying fellows it’s too rough to feed ya At 7PM a main hatchway caved in He said fellas it’s been good to know ya.
The Captain wired in he had water coming in And the good ship and crew was in peril And later that night when his lights went out of sight Came the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. Does anyone know where the love of God goes When the words turn the minutes to hours
The searchers all say they’d have made Whitefish Bay If they’d fifteen more miles behind her. They might have split up or they might have capsized They may have broke deep and took water And all that remains is the faces and the names Of the wives and the sons and the daughters.
Lake Huron rolls, Superior sings In the ruins of her ice water mansion Old Michigan steams like a young man’s dreams, The islands and bays are for sportsme
Gives me the shudders!
Well, if you lot are happily going OT I’m going to let my thinking wander…
Chicago, Soth Shore and South Bend Locos… were their “Little Joes” the same as Milwaukee Little Joes? Has anyone made a good model of them?
When did the CSS go diesel for frieght… and would I be right in thinking that their passenger service went into Metra?
More questions by the hour today [:-^]
TIA [8D]
OK, another neat topic I know nothing about, so I’ll stick my 2 cents in. (Or tuppence for you, Dave.) Since I don’t actually see a hopper on a car float, I wonder if that’s what’s being done, or if the hoppers are coming down to the docks to be dumped into one of the Lake Boats.
On a slightly different topic, this is a car float terminal model from the Treasure Coast Model Railroad Club in Florida. It’s near where my in-laws live, and they’ve been kind enough to let me take pictures of their layout. It doesn’t show up well here, but it’s some of the best modelling of gray-green ocean water I’ve ever seen.
The Great Lakes freeze over in winter hence navigation is closed during that season.
Buy a block of balsa wood and start carving. If you can get a set of plans showing the hull lines, you can make some templates to guide your efforts.
Have fun
An article in RMC about this rail line might answer your questions. You can get a back issue of this magazine by going to:
http://stores.ebay.com/Corner-Books
Click on Magazine Back Issues
Railroad Model Craftsman August 1978
Five bucks plus shipping
ALSO
Photos of RTWT’s Baldwins at: http://baldwindiesels.railfan.net/rtw/index.html
Way back, around the early 1900’s I guess, the Erie railroad would lay a track acroos the iced-over lake and run trains back and forth across it all winter. There was a very real element of danger about this practice but the railroad was willing to accept that. It was much cheaper to run across on the ‘ice-line’ than it was to go around the lake.
The coal was removed from the hopper cars and loaded into the Lake Boats holds in bulk. In later years they used large rotary dumpers that would turn the hoppers over after clamps were put on the top of the hopper to hold it to the rail section, then the whole thing would roll over. Track section included, 360 degrees. Many of the hars had rotary couplers on the car so they did not even need to be uncoupled. Usually there was a wide stripe around one end of the car to indicate which one was the rotary coupler. The air hoses were disconnected when dumping the product. Before that they would uncouple one car at a time, push it up an incline and dump the whole car over into a large “funnel” and the load would drop into the boat where the funnel was pointing. Even before that they would actually open the doors on the bottem of the hopper and dumped it out that way. It could be unloaded out of the boat with a Hewlett unloader, or with conveyor belts. Look up Hewlett unloader on the internet. to see the giant beasts that were used to unload these “boats”. The Hewlett unloaders were used mainly for taconite and iron ore. At the River Rouge Ford plant they used clamshell buckets to unload the coal I believe. It must have taken a long time to unload one of those boats that way. We are talking tens of thousands of tons in these boats.
The south shore refers to the shoreline of Lake Michigan south of Chicago. If you head south of Chicago you will not run into the lake. The lake has already started the curve to the east at Chicago. By the time you are in Gary Indiana the shore is pretty much west to east.
The coal did bypass the great lakes in the winter, and most of my family members would be unemployed at that time because the railroads did not need nearly as many people when the lakes were frozen. Of course once they got alot of seniority they didn’t get layed off. I believe the coal was not stockpiled as often as the iron oar. Perhaps coal does not weather as well? They
Thanks again everyone [:D]
Coal can be stockpiled, as at powerstations, but they have to be careful about fires starting deep in the pile. Even coal mine spoil tips that had a lot of slack coal in them could (and did) catch fire. The coal in ships’ bunkers could ignite… there was a theory that maybe Titanic hadn’t slowed down because she had a fire in the bunkers and they were rushing to get to harbour/in range of fire tugs when they hit the 'berg.
Was that canal open all the way to the Gulf? Must have been disgusting. I vaguely recall thet soemwhere, maybe Chicago, had a Sanitary Railroad… I’ve got pics of their switches somewhere in the pile.
I’ve seen pics of the enormous unloaders. Great thing with unloading by clamshell was that when the load was nearly all out men had to go in and concentrate the stuff from the corners by hand shovel for the grabs to catch. I believe that in some cases these days they put in Bobcat skid loaders. They can’t leave the stuff in the corners because it becomes a fire risk and/or any acid in it corrodes the hold lining.
I read a theory that wet coal burns giving off a hgher calorific value than dry. Also coal powder (like all powders) is potentially explosive if it lifts and gets into the right mix with air.
Thanks again
[8D]
Dave,
The definitive book on railroad ferries on the Great Lakes is George Hilton’s “The Great Lakes Car Ferries.” There’s plenty of interesting material in there - plans, photos, etc.
The CSS&SB Joes were very close to the Milwaukee Joes - their internal electrical system was slightly different, since the South Shore’s electrical outfit was different from the Milwaukee’s, but they were otherwise similar - there’s one left at the Illinois Transportation Museum, and they may be able to give you specifics. All of the Joes were built by GE for shipment to the USSR, but were embargoed in 1946. GE sold some to the CSS&SB, more to the Milwaukee, and the rest to the Paulista Railroad in Brazil. The only models I know of were done in brass, but they’ve been done a couple of times - you might check Caboose Hobbies’ website (they’re in Denver) to see whether they have any, and to check prices - I’d check over a period of months, because a lot of their sales are consignment stuff, and the seller, rather than the hobby shop, sets the price.
The image is copied from Sylvans website where they host a gallery of their products customers have build.
http://www.isp.on.ca/Sylvan/product.htm
I have one of their tug boats awaiting assembly when my dock is ready for one.
The canal eventually dumps into the Chicago River (near Lockport?) which then dumps into the Illinois (near Joliet). And the Chicago Sanitary Railroad still operates from the plant at Central Ave and I-55 to the dumping area off I-55 between Willow Springs and McKook/Summit, right across the river from the Corn Products Argo Plant. They use yellow SW1500’s, if I rember right.
The canal eventually dumps into the Chicago River (near Lockport?) which then dumps into the Illinois (near Joliet). And the Chicago Sanitary Railroad still operates from the plant at Central Ave and I-55 to the dumping area off I-55 between Willow Springs and McKook/Summit, right across the river from the Corn Products Argo Plant. They use yellow SW1500’s, if I rember right.
Also on a similar topic, the Lakers still get loaded near the inlet at State Line as the Skyway crosses over. I’m not sure if the largest ones can get in, but I’ve seen rather large boats from the bridge down the canal several times, not sure what the canal’s name is, though.
This company was bought by Koch Industries 15 years ago and ships coal to power plants on Lake Michigan. Last time I was there they only used one GP7 or 9.
OT, but just to clarify:
The Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal (originally called the Chicago Drainage Canal, completed in 1900) was built to reverse the flow of the Chicago River. Chicago dumped their sewage into the river in the 19th century. It then flowed into the lake and contaminated the drinking water. There were cholera outbreaks in the late 19th century. The canal connects the Chicago R. to the Des Plaines R., which flows into the Illinois R. and then to the Mississippi. The people of St Louis were not at all happy at the prospect of receiving Chicago’s “effluent”. Later, after protests from other great lakes states, a lock was built where the Chicago R. meets Lake Michigan to reduce the amount of lake water flowing into the Chicago R. and eventually to the Gulf.