Railfanning and Law inforcement.

Ok I thank you all for the good advice,but what is the #1 thing that I keep in mind while im out Railfanning? No tresspasing? Ya well like duu, stupid me.

Officers,

I stronly agree with 99% of what you say, and the protocol you suggest is basically what I follow–not to mention respect your profession both as an individual citizen and a former deputy district attorney/prosecutor.

However, your “Constitutional Argument comment” raised my eyebrow. If I am legally watching trains on public property, I fail to see why–after politely identifying myself (which people are now required to do in certain circumstances by the way) and explaining what I am doing–pointing out to the officer that he may not make me move without providing a legal reason for doing so is offensive and worth a trip downtown? The last thing I want to do is give an officer a hard time, and if he or she gives me a good reason for moving on—even if I am not required to do so by law—I probably will. But, if the officer arrests me on the “because I said so” grounds, I am going to introduce the officer to my familiarity with 42 U.S.C. § 1983.

Gabe

Gabe, you are correct. You do have a right to remain on public property after identifying yourself. The officer does not have the legal right to remove you as it would be an illegal search and seizure once you are no longer free to leave or anything else that transpires out of an illegal seizure… I am familar with 42 U.S.C. § 1983 as well.

Most officers at least that I personally know and work with won’t even bother stopping and identifying you. The exception is where we have have prior vandalism, tresspassing, etc. complaints that then you would be spoken to, under reasonable suspicion and even probable cause in some cases but such incidents would be justified. Once the officer has determined that you are not engaged in criminal activity, you legally cannot be removed as long as you are on public property.

On the other hand, a engineer called in a report that some guys in a boat were video taping under bridges near one major city. The police were notified and met the boat when it came in.

Turns out is was a TV news crew that was caught doing a report on how a ist could photgraph the structure of a bridge without being caught.

Dave H.

I guess that blows that theory out of the water.

It’s a good thing that the Train crew saw what was going on.

Officer,What should I do if im approached by an Officer during Takeing Photo’s or Video Taping of a Train? Because I “never” been bothered by no one while railfanning.
Please help!
Thanks.

Me lets see. I railfan were ever I can or were I want to. I think I have a right to take interest in my hobby. I’ve have had the police called on me before. They were pretty kewl about it, I just tell them hey I’m a train nut and I’m here to take pics thats all. Then they say ok. Sometimes people look at me like I’m crazy when I railfan but hay, I’m doing it because I want to. To get some of them off my back I’ll tell them I work for the railroad. Then they leave me alone. I’ve never ran into a train crew who has called the cops most of them wave or smile.

Only on public property and always give a wave to the crew so they know I not going to shoot at them or jump into thier way.Never had any trouble from the RR or police.

Note to all law enforcement personnel:

When it is the middle of the day, and I am legally parked in full view in a public area, and my tripod is out and the camera is attached, and I am a white, middle-aged male in a bright blue pickup truck, and you approach me and ask me what I am doing, do you realize how stupid that makes you look? It is so difficult to answer politely, instead of saying something like, “You mean BESIDES THE OBVIOUS?”

A little more common sense, and a little less paranoia, please.

For Gabe:
What are the provisions in 42 U.S.C. # 1983? Does it forbid photographing military or strategic facilities?

Many years ago, more than i would like to remember, I was photographing trains exiting New York Central’s Park Avenue tunnel when I asked the cop on the beat if the area was safe. He looked at my cameras, cheap by today’s standards, and he suggested I hide my cameras, get my pictures quickly, and leave. So I have had no trouble with cops over railroad photography.

If I am photographing trains from public property, and a cop approaches, I will identify myself as a railfan; but, if the cop tells me to leave, I will leave promptly, I won’t argue, and I won’t come back later. They don’t have to give you a reason.

Officer,What should I do if im approached by an Officer during Takeing Photo’s or Video Taping of a Train? Because I “never” been bothered by no one while railfanning.
Please help!
Thanks.
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BNSF, all you must do is identify yourself and state what you are there for. Most officers aren’t even necessarily taking an aim at you personally or trying to pick on folks accusing anyone of any wrongdoing, its that the officers also want someone to contact in the case that something illegal or stupid does happen by someone else’s hand after or before the raifan was there, in which case what better person to ask later on than a railfan, who may have something of use on tape or camera. That’s usually the point I take when approaching other fellow railfans when I have spoken to them while in the course of my shift tour of duty. You wouldn’t believe the things people have told me that I have passed on that have helped find missing persons, solve vandalisms, and end suspicions to other “suspicious” activities![:D]

And Mr. Zardoz, go ahead and use that sort of attitude, I am not saying you’ll get this kind of treatment from me, but with near certainty the vast majority of officers that approach you will treat you with equal attitude. Its not about anyone looking stupid, just read my response to BNSF, hopefully instead of becoming defensive, you will have a new take on the whole idea. We are, in fact all humans trying to help each other out. If you don’t believe that, try asking anyone who was involved in the whole recent Spain-train explosions. I’m sure though that no one was “stupid” enough to plan that ordeal in the daylight, that’s of course when ALL the criminals sleep.

The officer is only doing his job in protecting property of others, be it a railroad or a gas station. Loitering is not a good thing. Think of the muggings that occur at ATM machines. I am glad to see the officers checking out the territory. If you have a legitimate reason for being there the officer will let you return to what you were doing. One day I, as a member of the Board of Directors of our transit agency, I was inspecting the ribbon rail we had stored inside a chain link fence enclosure alond an out of service rail line that we would be soon converting to light rail. I showed my ID to the officer and he was apologetic. I thanked him for helping to secure our property. He said he only stopped as he thought I was trying to steal some rail. I did a quick friendly education project on the officer explaining that there was no way I could load a 1,440 foot section of 115# rail into my car. He truely did not know the weight of rail or its length and thanked me for the education.

I admit I perhaps was not clear in my earlier statement.
As a cop, I do have the power to stop and ask you for your identification. I don’t need a reason. That’s the law down here.

Most often, after I check your ID, I’ll tell you why I stopped you. Usually, that’s all there is to it. I’ll document the stop and the ID. If I find out that you are a railfan, I’ll probably tell you I’m one of those critters too. I may tell you that you are in a dangerous neighborhood (rail yards tend to be sited in poor, high crime areas) or to be sure that you stay off railroad property. Then I’ll most likely drive off.

I’ve found that railfans are pretty rare creatures. I’m more likely to find that the “lost” middle aged guy in the pickup truck with a camera and tripod in the neighborhood is looking for drugs and/or a hooker. Either way, someone is going to be “hassled”.

If you run into a robo cop who seems to be overzealous in the course of his/her duties, by all means pick up the phone and call the local precinct or sheriff’s department and complain. It’s helpful if you note exactly who it is you talked to, when the incident occurred, and where. I can’t speak for other departments, but I can speak for my Sheriff. He takes every complaint seriously… and his investigations of complaints involve roughly the same amount of joy to an officer as, say, a ton of fecal matter obeying the laws of physics.

Cops who catch a lot of complaints against them usually end up making new career choices after a while.

Believe me, I don’t enjoy hassling the public. I would rather drive around 300 miles a day over county roads enjoying the scenery and taking my own train pictures. It’s easier and safer for me. Unfortunately, as I said before, as long as there are stupid people doing stupid things, I’ll have a job.

Erik

Erik,

Just as an aside, the Supreme Court case that just upheld the right of an officer to require a suspect to give the officer an identification did so under the pretext of a Terry stop–which I am sure you are familiar with. In other words, the officer who asked for the ID had some articulable reasonable suspicion of illegal activity before requiring the ID. I will go look up the case and read it again, but I am pretty sure its holding regarding IDs just referred to “Terry Stops”—not allowing people to be ID for no reason.

The only reason I bring this up is, I am surprised they allow you to ID “for any reason.” To my knowledge the Supreme Court Case on that–Kolendar v. Lawson–is still good law and says you can’t do that.

That having been said, I don’t doubt you if you say that is the policy where you live. In this day and age, the Supreme Court may decide to change the law with regard to baseless requests for IDs. Maybe Georgia wants to be the state to challenge it. I suspect the Supreme Court is not going to change on this one though–albeit in a typical 5-4 vote.

Gabe

Thank you so much Officers!

Gabe-
The policy- which differs from department to department- requires some officers to make five “contacts” per hour. The contacts are also known as “field interviews.” My department does not require them as evaluation devices.

You’re correct when you say that I generally need a reason to ask for an ID. (Any cop that stops and asks for ID’s on a random basis just for the opportunity to do it has way too much time on his hands.) Any good police officer or deputy will let you know why he/she is asking for ID. They don’t have to, though.

By the way, I live in Georgia and work in Alabama.

I see a lot of military trains from Fort Benning. I suspect that were I to see someone taking pictures of those, I would probably stop them and ask for ID. I doubt that I would be able to make a case, and I strongly suspect my DA would not want to prosecute… because we would be going into terra incognita in this particular county.

Woe be unto the officer who confiscates film or any other property without making an arrest that sticks!

Erik

I have found that the majority of the “jerks” tend to be the cops with less than 7-8 years out in the field.

They seem to come out of the academy with an imaginary “S” on their chests, and the attitude that they -“are really gonna make a difference…THE difference…cleaning up america one scumbag at a time”…etc. Legends in their own minds.

Most cops seem to come back down to earth, after they get several years under their belt.

Remember the words on the sides of the cop cars nowadays?
When you out and about, Railfanning or what ever…To protect and Serve!

Very true, been there, done that[:D]
I have 11 years now so my ship has safely landed “back down to earth”[:)]
We have a few running around here with the “S” chest too.