Railfanning, Homeland Security, and what we can and cannot do...

Trains Magazine General Discussion
1

I know this topic comes up from time to time. Now, I am not going to get alarmist here, because I honestly don’ t know what the truth is or not.

Last night, I was out at the west end of UP’s Proviso Yard. Westbound trains leave the yard in the town of Elmhurst. Now, I was in a public park last night, taking pictures with my son. I chose this location, because of the accessiblity to the spur that comes off the Geneva sub right before the entrance to Proviso, and curves north to Yard #9, and trains using this spur access the Kenosha Sub from here. So, it’s a great place to shoot photos of the coal trains that use this spur. Now, I was minding my own business last night, when, around 8:15 and Elmhurst police officer showed up, and sent us on our way. Not wanting to raise the ire of the officer, I left. He told me that I cannot shoot pictures, because it is illegal, I was trespassing, and I did not have the railroad’s permission. Instead of arguing with the officer I left. As I turned to leave, and walk along through the park to get to my car, I noticed an additional squad in the lot, as well as a Supervisor outside the entrance to the park. that’s a bit too much manpower for just a couple of railfans.

I work in law enforcement, I am a 911 operator, and I have lots of contact with police officers. So, I decided to check with a couple of the officers that I work with and see what they had to say. I was told from the watch commander on down, that because of the new Homeland Security laws, photographing trains is illegal. I couldn’t get much more clarification than that.

Now, I am confused. The lastest Trains magazine, the editorial on the first page, titled “Dear Police Chief” indicates that it is NOT illegal to photograph trains, and I have heard the same thing echoed by other people that I know, including my best friend’s brother who works for the Union Pacific.

Which one is it? Because my watch commander (who is a really good guy) is almost c

2

Unless your watch comander can show you where the US Constitution has been declared as set aside by the US Supreme Court…(and they cant even do that) your watch commander and everyone you talked to is wrong.

Take a copy of that editorial to him or her…and talk to your local District Attorney, or the US Attorney for your district.

UTAH PHONE FAX
Paul M. Warner, USA*
185 South State Street, Suite 400, Salt Lake City 84111 (801)524-5682 (801)524-6924

Ask him!

Ed

3

So what you are saying edblysard, Is that Taking Photo’s of Trains is legal. Right?
Allan.

4

Yes, it is.
Or are you implying that Eric and Mike, from Trains magazine, along with the thousand of other photographers that take train photos every day, are breaking “the law”?

Ignorance of your basic rights and ignorance of the law by law enforcement officials is stupid.
Haven’t you been paying attention?
If you are on public property, you can take all the photos of just about anything you want too, period…
Some military bases, and certain nuclear facilities, are off limits, but anything BNSF, UP and all the class 1s run are free game if you are on public property.
Now, on their private property, you need their permission.

You quit, they win.
Ed

5

The location where I railfan is close to a city police substation and a CHP station. It is rare when a few police cars do not pass me while railfanning. The only time any stopped was when one CHP officer stopped to ask if my vehicle broke down. I said no and thanked him for stopping, then he left. Yes, I have photographed trains when a police car was driving down the road.

6

Jeez guys, we keep going over and over and over this subject. Stay on public property and you’re fine.
mike

7

Ok Ok…Ill take your word for it.

8

I’ll say it again–if local law enforcement or transit/railroad police believe that terrorists are relying on railfans to gather reconnaissance they are sadly mistaken. The terrorists have already done their research as we have found from captured documents found in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

9

hello tim… why dont you become a rebel and go back there with lots of your friend and maybe some members of the media… i am sure a discrete phone call to the local police will have them racing over there to round up the terrorists… sounds like the sort of stuff the black people in the 60,s had to deal with and they won against the police by using the media… ( dont let them kick you out of there )…peter

10

Tim: This sounds like a replay of the recent Morton Grove incident. You are totally right on all counts especially to leave since who knows the cop could have trumped up a charge. Since you are employed by your town’s local policedepartment there probaly isn’t too much you can do for fear of retailiation. I like Ed Blylsard’s approach work through your local district attorney or possibly the state’s attorney for your county. Another possibility, and perhaps better, contact your local ACLU or even your local newspaper. You might also contact another web site, www.photopermit.org.

As for photographers’ rights I suggest you download a brochure on photographers rights which was written by Bert KragesII who is an attorney who deals in intellectual property in Portland Oregon. His website is www.krages.com/phoright.htm. I am retired from the U.S. government, and I used to work as an engineer and a manager in a defense lab, so I know there are no laws against photographing anything in the public domain from public property unless there is an identifiable strategic defense installation or nuclear facility in the nearby background.

Jim Wrinn’s editorial in the august, 2005 Trains about cops getting to know and understand railfans better is excellent. I hope a copy is sent to the chief of your police department who needs to be educated.

Rudy

11

It is more than just the local police though. Just last night I was railfanning (without a camera) in a Kansas City park that overlooks the entrance to Union Station and the BNSF Transcon when a BNSF Police Officer informed me that I was now restricted from observing train movements by order of the DHS. I complied and left, but as I was leaving I was advised that I would be detained for questioning and possibly arrested if I was stopped again.

It is getting worse and worse every day that I must give up more freedoms in the name of terrorism. I apologize the New Yorkers but I am much more likely to get killed by a street hood than a terrorist. At Kansas City International Airport and Wheeler Downtown airport you can no longer stop and look at or photograph planes, the airport police will confiscate the film, and the Kansas City Airshow was cancelled in part due to security concerns, what next? I feel like they already have won.

12

I was stopped earlier this evening for standing outside my local MR club watching a train before I left for the night, the cop told me it was private property and I was loitering, nothing about the camera I had in my hand, which was at one point in time in his sight pointed at a train. I just explained to him that i was a member of the club and was allowed to be there and he understood and left.

13

I was stopped earlier this evening for standing outside my local MR club watching a train before I left for the night, the cop told me it was private property and I was loitering, nothing about the camera I had in my hand, which was at one point in time in his sight pointed at a train. I just explained to him that i was a member of the club and was allowed to be there and he understood and left.

14

this hole thing has gotten out of hand this is just the govermets way to try to control us [:(!] we pay taxes and should be allowed to get pics of trains as long as your not tresspassing.i would have stood up for my right to do so . i would go to the same spot over and over just to let them know there not scareing me. and i would try to get other people to do the same and maybe the media if they are intrested. we the people of the us are letting the goverment take our freedum because of some terrorists. we need to let them know we wont stand for by litters to you local news paper and goverment officals

sorry about spelling i know it sucks [:(]

15

the cops know when it is against the law to stop someone for steeling a car or being a rapist or killing someone… however they do not have a clue what to do when they have a situation that they have no knowedge of but they can control it by calling your bluff… if you laydown and let some one kick you then dont complain when they kick you harder next time… instead of complaining to a forum (no insult intended ) use the forum …organise the train fans and members of this forum to gather at places where people have been arrested or harrased by the cops … if the readers of trains magazine cannot get together to organise a public showing of streanth and show the cops that they should not harras people who are going about their lives and doing something that i am sure no terrorist would ever do… americans… please stand up for yourselfs so that the next time i come to your wonderful country i dont get arrested for telling a cop to “go far off” thanks peter

16

I know where you are coming from…I my self am about to give up Railfanning forever!. The Terrorists have won in this chicken *** nation. And so for the fat cops in this nation too. And I stand behind my words too. Cops have better thing to do that go chasing away some God D*mn Railfan,Why don’t they go crack down on the METH in this country. Allan.

17

This is getting way out there. What the heck is going on with the law enforcement everywhere because it isn’t just the U.S that has bouts of law forgetfulness.

I think CNN, ABC, CBC,CBS and many others need to do a story about railfans and dispel some of the lies and negative attitude that has been conjured up by a bunch of hysterics and paranoia…rediculous.

18

Sounds like the cops are a bunch of Barney Fife morons that get a good deal excitment over the amount of power they must enforce. Must be the local Doughnut huts daily offerings were stale and they decided its better to mess with a guy taking pictures of trains rather than searching out any real crime that may require them to fill out paper work.

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[censored] THAT !!! Don’t back down. I would have left the scene and immediatly started climbing the chain of command untill I got to someone that would straighten these boys out. And involving the media might not be a bad idea either. Those guys eat that stuff up. Now I understand in TimChgo9 could have a lot more at risk because of his job, so for him it’s a little different. As for the rest of us STAND YOUR GROUND!!!
IF YOU DON’T THEY WIN !!!

20

Okay gents…time to throttle back a bit. First of all Tim, you did the right thing. Diffuse the situation and seek answers in a non-combative method.

There is alot of confusion regarding what can and can’t be done, and that extends to the law enforcement communites. And when in doubt, they are probably going to default to telling you not to do it. Ed gave some good advice, and I’d present what I found out to the watch supervisor and take it from there. No cop wants to be the guy that let the next London, 9/11 or OKC happen again.

So if you see someone taking pictures of a railyard, the natural presumption would be that they were a railfan…right? But what if they were middle eastern or Chinese and taking pictures of a railyard or station? What if they were taking pictures of an airport or an aircraft carrier…from public property? Would you be suspicious then? How about your house? (Anybody have a home appraised lately or a nosy home owners association?) Folks are quick to say stupid cops, barney fife, etc…but these folks are trying to do a job, often with less than perfect guidance and to them a railfan (hmm guy with camera, maybe a map, notebook, scanner) taking pictures of a potential target looks exactly like what he is …an intelligence operative. Because at the basic level that is what a railfan is…an intelligence collector …observing, noting, and recording data…albeit for personal vice government use. So maybe, just maybe, you could cut these guys some slack and do as Tim did. You want to beat the terrorists, yeah don’t give in, but do it by helping the good guys do their job better, not by being a childish***and adding fuel to the fire or there really will be problems…

Tim you’re off to a good start. There’s some good (and bad) advice offered above.

Dan