Here is a link to a Railfan’s detention by law enforcement. Once you read the account, you will probably wonder what things are coming to in the US. in the name of 'security" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/central_PA_railfan/message/6308 I think that some laws are being stepped on, based on that account. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown
soon enough it’s going to be illegal to even fart in public…what’s next?!
The Patriot Act gone wrong again. Next we’ll be ordered to turn in our model trains, and this simple post will probably get my name on the Joint Task Force list.
I believe the legal system is going to have alot of fun with incidents like this. It’s time for law enforcement to get back to the basics and chasing railfans from public property vantage-points certainly is not one of those basics, and assuredly has nothing to do with fighting terrorism.
Its not only the detention ,but the statement by the Police that the railfan is now forbidden from taking any photographs of trains from any public place! This is silly! A simple quick hello and brief conversation with the officer could have sized up the situation! If it was a older man or woman with their 7 year old grandson standing there taking pictures, would the reaction had been the same by the police? Oh…oh…its a terrorist using a little kid to do the dirtywork as a cover…Get real!!! We are harassing our own citizens in the name of protecting ourselves rom Bin Laden. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown
I don’t like this kind of stuff any more then anybody else… But just to clarify… A train station isn’t necessarily considered “public property”.
But I guess the good news is… If this is all it takes to get on their “list”, then nobody will have much to worry about, because half the people in the country will be on it at this rate.
Dave
-DPD Productions - Home of the TrainTenna RR Monitoring Antenna-
http://eje.railfan.net/dpdp/
The other thing I wonder, is are there signs or written policy notices posted at that station forbidding photography? If the railfan was taking pictures in an area that was posted,’ No photography" he would probably expect some sort of response, though not by several police cars… Otherwise, what grounds did the police have to detain simply for someone standing on a platform taking pictures. How would anyone know by standing there that it was not allowed? Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown
Oh boy, this kinda thing gives cops like me headaches.
First, the “source” of this account is the Internet. It’s also a first person account. I have no way of determining whether this incident actually occurred or if it’s the feverish product of someone’s imagination. Given past experience trying to sift fact from hype on the Internet, I’ll believe that something happened, but probably not quite in the way it’s stated.
That being said, the subject of the article claimed he was taking pictures “on public property”, specifically a METRA platform. Believe it or not, police officers are charged with the precise responsibility of enforcing laws on public property. The cop was doing his job. He probably could have been a lot more tactful.
I am personally not aware of any specific Federal laws prohibiting photography of “strategic installations and facilities”, nor would I even try to enforce them. I have been trained, however, by Homeland Security and the JTTF to recognize and question suspicious activities that aren’t criminal in nature. There are ways to request identification via my dispatchers from the JTTF on their watch lists. The response time could very well be slow… because most Federal agencies (INS, the FBI, and even the JTTF) don’t respond very fast to local law enforcement.
The truth of the matter is that Homeland Security has had some successes in stopping threats by observant local law enforcement. Timothy McVeigh (who was the primary actor in the Murrah building bombing, Oklahoma City) was caught on a routine traffic stop. Another bomber was caught by a Customs officer in Washington state based solely on a “bad feeling” she had about the individual. And a third individual was caught on the New Jersey Turnpike carrying explosives in a routine traffic stop.
We as a people, routinely submit to search and seizures at airports; take a look at the signs conspicuously posted at your airport. Americans generally submit to those indignities
How do we know that peope with cell phone cameras aren’t taking pictures of sensative instalations? Don’t they just look like they’re on the phone?
Mitch
I’ll bet these guys started griping about the locomotive paint jobs, does it every time…
LC
If the railfan’s account is accurate, being told that he risks being arrested for taking any pictures of trains from a public place…being that his identity has now been entered into the gov’ts database…this is a major infringement. So, if this railfan is seen at a grade crossing somewhere else, and is stopped and ID’d by another officer, who pulls info up in Computer, which now shows the ‘record’ on this railfan…there has to be some common sense used here…A terrorist will not be so obvious, knowing we are on our guard…Maybe the local PD thought they had hit paydirt…must be operatives for Osama…Wow, we’ll get publicity for nailing these guys!!! Hey Grandpa, can we go take pictures of trains today? Naw…we can’t…someone might think we’re up to no good and call the Police!" While these railfans were being questioned, a terrorist could have been riding the train…scoping out stops and stations, using a cellphone cam like an earlier post suggested, or driving or hiking in somewhere looking for a place to sabotage…as I said before…I think that the matter at the platform could have been cleared up alot quicker and with less fanfare than it was. And if the railfans did not quote their constitutional rights,against unlawful seizure, ther film would have likely been confiscated. Law enforcement should not have to be reminded of the Constitution. Dave Williams
If law enforcement members cannot discern railfans taking photos of trains then perhaps they need more training. Stating that taking such photos from public places is now unlawful is just flat out wrong. If they repeat it to themselves too many times then they will start to believe it. If there is some obscure edict from Homeland Security that indeed makes it illegal then it should be in the Congressional Record for all to see. Where did the authority to search the car in the parking lot come from? More than an hour with some regular law abiding citizens out doing a hobby practiced for over 100 years in this country to determine they are not a threat? Come on, what a waste of police resources. Now that these indiviuals are “in the system” what will the next report from the feds say, “These guys have been checked and they are OK”, or “These suspects have been observed doing this behavior before and should be detained this time for further questioning”? I would suspect the latter. How many times do they have to be reported in this suspicious behavior before they make the ‘No Fly’ list?
It might be time to send along a contribution to the ACLU when I subscribe to my next railroad oriented magazine or buy a new lens. It looks like I may need both if I want to continue to actively practice my hobby. When will Homeland Security allow officers and agents to come to my house and sieze all my photos of stations, tunnels and bridges account these can be useful to terrorists bent on destruction? It sure sounds a lot like the days of the old USSR to me. The next thing you know AAA wil be branded a terrorist organization account they hand out detailed maps that terrorists could use to locate targets. You of course, will have your maps in the door pockets of your car confiscated if stopped and questioned.
Perhaps it is time to take up stamp collecting. Oops, no, I might be in contact with foreign agents and draw suspecian. Butterfly collecting might be OK unless you end up tresspass
Would any of this had played out differently if the railfans had Metra tickets in their posession? Then they would have been “waiting passengers” who were also photographing trains…
This incident is outrageous! Simply taking a picture of a commuter train is basically harmless. Although pictures of trains, railroad equipment, and other railroad related locations have been found in abandoned Al-Qaeda camps, it doesn’t really mean anything anyways. The Internet yields thousands, perhaps millions of photos of trains and railroads; why would a terrorist go to the bother of taking the pictures himself, when he can get all the pictures he wants with a few clicks of the mouse on his PC!
According to the Officer’s account, I guess nobody should be caught taking pictures of the Golden Gate Bridge…I guess if I am filming a train in Enola, Pa from the Railfan Bridge at the West End of the Yard, it would be illegal according to this account… One, I am filming trains, and two, I am filming a bridge or overpass, as Interstate 81 would likely be in the shot looking into the yard…It is lunacy…and a sad state of affairs if this is the direction America is heading…doing all this is only shooting ourselves in the foot. Someone needs to look at procedures, and maybe become educated on the railfan, that the railfan is not the enemy! Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown
THE TERRORISTS HAVE WON! We have lost our freedom. Holy sweet God we Railfans are going to jail for just WATCHING TRAINS holy crap,What ever! Number one. Why should I give up my God given rights to the terrorists? Hell no. What where the words right out of President Bushes own MOUTH? He said plain as day…Keep on doing your everyday activitys…Like helloooo.
Can we Railfans even file a lawsuit for failure of our violation of our rights?
I mean if we Railfans can’t even go Railfanning then what the “HELL” are we saposed to do??? I swear to that this Country is going in the hole real fast and getting deeper every day.
THE TERRORISTS…WON! THE RAILFANS…LOST.
Im starting to agree with the GIRL who turned her back on the American Flag. I am doing the same until this Country starts to GROW UP! LEAVE US “RAILFANS” ALONE!
First, people need to calm down. The second thing is to know the applicable law for the situation. A railroad station platform is not public territory, it is private property and the laws define that as tresspassing. Amtrak has legally banned “railfans” from stations.
New Jersey Transit has declared it illegal to photograph their trains (may still be tested in court, but they’ve got better lawyers than I do ). Unfortunately, some “railfans” have caused problems, tresspassing, stealing, vandalizing equipment, etc causing many problems for the rest of us. Police have no way of knowing what your actual intent is, so let them do their job, treat them with respect and behave yourself.
I know many police officers and they are not very good at thinking outside the box, they really don’t understand outside the box. I’m not talking about the officers on the forum that are also railfans. But I get to interact with many police officers on a daily basis that have college degrees and they would be the first ones to detain someone for taking pictures with a camera because they do not think outside the box.
They don’t believe there is any legal activity that they don’t already know about. I have talked to some of them a few times about railfanning and I get this deer in the headlights look, I try to inform them it’s a hobby like golf, they can’t believe anyone would waste time (their words, not mine) watching and taking pictures of trains unless a child is along. A child is the only thing that makes sense to them anything else must be illegal, the outside the box thing again.
I’m with everyone else while railfans are being detained, questioned and maybe arrested the terrorist has taken a picture with his cell phone, e-mailed it to headquarters and is on his way to the next picture. Maybe the police are standing next to him!
If the account is true, then they should get a good lawyer and sue, I am sure there are plenty who would love to take this case. Then we can find out just what happened from the statements under oath.
Maybe I am just dense or don’t get it, but can anybody explain to me just how pictures of trains could help a terrorist plan some sort of attack?
Jay
Everybody is getting paranoid about Terrorists. Yes it is a threat but we know more about how they operate and we can better combat them. I believe that this man’s problem is a first and fourth amendment issue. Did he give the police permission to search his vehicle? Or, did they see somthing suspicious that they thought it may be a Plain Sight acception? The police were just doing thier job but, i believe if this is true they may have taken it a step too far. Yes, i will give up a right here or ther to make us all asfe, but that is if it is reasonable. I WILL NOT give up my right to take pictures, enjoy my public land, and live my life top the fullest. The Declaration of independace states that we have “The right ot life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness”. Yes, I am a flag waving redneck, that is becasue I believe in the right gaurenteed to us by our government.