real water feature

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
1

I am trying to plan a new 16x20 layout that I hope to start this fall. One thing I would like to do is have a real water feature in a waterfall into a small lake with a river that would have a catch basin where a pump would pick up the water to return to the waterfall, much like a backyard water pond. Over the years I have only seen one layout that had a carnival water ride that actually had water. Has anyone done this, if so what type of landscape material do I need to use that will hold the water. Also any suggestions on where to get a small pump that will do small amout of water. My benchwork is L-girder with two layers of 2" foam with several cross supports. Can anyone tell me if this is possible or will I be just causing myself headaches with leaks and damaged scenery.

Thanks, Dugan

2

Sounds like a good plan except for a couple of minor details. #1, water doesn’t scale down. It looks the same as 1/87 as it does at 1:1 and just doesn’t look right. #2, it has a nasty tendancy to splash and get things wet. It also will find a way to leak out if old man Murphy has anything to about it. It also has a habit of making things corrode.

3

A real water feature would be neat IT SEEMS! BUT:

1} real water doesn’t look right next to scale things.It’s “too big” believe it or not.

2} water would have to be contained with a really heavy plastic liner {or rubber like real ponds} to contain it.

3} water splashes from a “waterfall” or “rapids” and would damage scenery around it, including rusting train parts.

4} It would have to have to be tinted blue to show up as “'water”, clearness is not desireable at scale as it won’t look like water, and painted surfaces will wear down or thin out with the water in it.

5} algae and green slime WOULD grow so you would need to treat it to keep algae from forming. Especially if exposed to ANY sunlight, and even flourescent light will cause it to grow.

6} you would need a filter to keep the pump clean and pumping and they are a pain to maintain,especially from the algae, which will CLOG and KILL a pump. The algae WILL grow.

7} It will evaporate and will need to be refilled often. With water treated for anti-algae growth.

8} it will add humidity to your layout,a nd many layouts are ruined by humidity, hence the need often for a dehumifier to keep humidity down and from ruining the layout in a basement, for example…

9} Blue tinting will be removed by the filtering process leaving you back to #4.

10} did I mention things RUSTING around natural water? How about CORROSION?

HOW do I know all this? I have a 1:1 waterfall/pond system and used to have several fish tanks to maintain. This year I am NOT maintaining the waterfall/pond as I need a new pump, new filtersystem, and tired of the maintenance. Algae KILLED my pump last year, and the filter system plain gave out. Rep

4

It seems like a good idea intuitively, but it is not a good idea at all, and for all the reasons stated so far (good comprehensive list, Galaxy!).

Water will run in the gravity of the real world the same way it will run in the gravity that makes your prized locomotive dash to bits on the floor if you have the misfortune to drop one. Water will run around your model water course at the same speed it moves across your bathroom floor if you should happen to have a leak or an overflow. Water flowing on your layout will be flowing at 90 scale miles per hour!!! Would that look realistic?

And then all the other problems.

Sooner or later, we abandon the idea. For some of us, it has to be when we see for ourselves, while for others we can see the problems without having to resort to the personal experience.

So, we are still unanimous…don’t do it.

-Crandell

5

Dugan:It’s not that I have anything against you trying out a real water feature. I just don’t want to have you learn the hard way that it’s not a good idea. I’ve tried it and regretted it in a big way. The water managed to soak into the surrounding scenery and rusted the track as well as caused severe damage to a locomotives motor. That wasn’t from water getting into it. It was just from having it on the layout.

6

The short answer, don’t do it.

model railroading + real water = big mess. Real water bad/Envirotex Lite good All of the reasons explained about why not to do it just about cover it. I can’t verify the story as I heard it second hand but one of the guys in our club knew a guy who knew a guy (you know the drill) who built this massive harbor scene on his large home layout. It was something like 12 feet long by I think 3 or 4 feet. Well the builder too into account that he would need to seal it carefully so he applied coat after coat of a two part epoxy sealant used to seal foundations.he also hand formed the entire thing out of fiberglass resin over forms etc. a real undertaking,He had all his cargo ship models and all the other stuff you would see out on he water. He filled the thing up with water and with in less then a couple of minutes the entire thing crashed to the layout floor. He never too into account that water weighs something like 8.4lbs per gallon and that the brass non corrosive screws that held the thing into the bench work wouldn’t be strong enough to hold it.

7

If you want to put a real water feature on your model railroad layout, you should be modeling in G scale, live steam, or 1:1: scale :slight_smile:

8

Disregarding the maintenance headaches, real water just doesn’t look like water in any scale smaller than 1:1.

A waterfall was mentioned. Just for grins, let that waterfall be ten meters high:

  • 1:1 scale. A thundering cascade, with rainbows playing in the mist cloud at the bottom.

  • 1:80 scale. Water pouring out of a bowl into the sink while washing dishes…

Now, how about a nice, steep run of white water about as wide as that waterfall was high:

  • 1:1 scale. Thunder can be heard for half a kilometer, and you’ll get wet well above the water surface on shore. Deep standing waves that can swallow a kayak.

  • 1:80 scale. Rain ruvulet that wouldn’t pose any real hazard to a rubber ducky…

My wife recently added a bronze Hotokesama to our garden, complete with solar powered bird bath. The water drops about five 1:80 scale meters from the shower head to the pond surface - and hardly creates a ripple. We don’t have much in the way of algae here in the dessicated desert, but we DO have evaporation - about a gallon a day from a very small pool that actually runs just a bit more than a leaky bathroom faucet. As a result, there is a considerable lime buildup already evident, after only a few weeks of service. (She’s beginning to think that Buddha needs a lapful of flowers rather than a fountain…)

My take on the matter? If it doesn’t look like the real thing I wouldn’t want it, even if it DIDN’T come with a hatful of maintenance issues.

Just my [2c], but I’ve yet to see a single post in favor of using real water on a layout.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with watercourses navigabl

9

Thanks for your help, I knew there where reasons why I had only seen it one time. I thought about the maintenance but thinking if I kept it small it might not be as bad but I never thought about it not looking to scale and the maintenance is more than I thought and this is a project of enjoyment not headaches, so thanks again for saving me the headaches. I guess I will think about some eletrical animation to add some interest.

Dugan

10

I think you’re making the right call on that. As others have said, yes, it’s possible to have real running water on a layout, but it is so full of problems that it’s really not worth it.

Look at the animated signs from Miller Engineering, or the working traffic lights from Walthers Cornerstone. If you really want something that moves, plan for a grade crossing with operating gates. The lights add interest, but they have no moving parts and won’t wear out. The operating gates take some doing, but they are a part of railroading and really fit on almost any layout.

11

It could work. Just use rails that won’t rust and keep them and engines away from the water. And the way I figured it, beef up the benchwork. (The Lufwaffa is nothing compared to water.) and when it is not in use, drain it. I’ve been thinking about a real water harbor on my layout. Water+ electricity = bad

12

Possible way to ‘animate’ a waterfall without creating a maintenance nightmare.

Leave a shadowbox behind the falling ‘water’ (strips of clear plastic augmented with dribbles of clear latex caulk, falling into a ball of spun-glass fibers.) Install several white LEDs with random flasher circuits in the shadowbox, shining into some crinkled-up aluminum foil that makes up the back surface of the enclosure. The come-and-go glints of bright light will simulate the flashes of sunlight off the irregular surface of real falling water. Emphasize the kicked-up froth of spray at the bottom.

Since my plans include both waterfalls and white water* I intend to experiment with this technique.

  • My prototypes ran (and two still run) through some extremely rugged mountains that receive more rain in a summer than Las Vegas gets in a (wet) decade, so there’s a lot of water moving over a lot of vertical drop, everything from steep streams at the bottoms of ravines to a river that rivals the Colorado in flow and supports several major hydroelectric projects. In my modeling that river is the Tomikawa.

Chuck (Modeling rugged, wet Central Japan in September, 1964)

13

I have seen real water used on a large diorama where the guy had built a logging camp that had a rail barge facility. At train shows he rolled the cars on and off the barge, and the barge would move around a bit as he did this, much like a real one would. It was an awesome modeling job. The water and logging camp had that dirty, remote west coast look to it and even the water part was so well done that it was convincing.

That being said he was soon to replace the real water with the fake stuff as it was either do that or lose his whole diorama. The comparison was “how long does a paper boat last on water?” No matter how hard he tried the water caused quick deterioration to all parts of his masterpiece so the water had to go.

Brent

14

That car float can react to the asymmetrical aspects of loading and unloading without having to float on water. Just have the top of the hull (from the mid-side rub strake up) fit loosely over the lower portion. Then ‘float’ it on four soft springs, one centered on each side and one centered on each end. The real challenge then becomes making the loading bridge flexible enough to react to the differences as the empty float is loaded with five real pounds of cars, or vice-versa.

Chuck (New York resident during the car float era modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

15

That’s a good idea Chuck. I’ll keep it in mind as I would like to do a barge scene myself one day.

The other neat thing about his using real water was the ripple that went out when a car rolled on. Though not quite real looking, it added a certain effect to the scene. Never saw that diorama at another train show after that.

Brent

16

Here is a water feature in S scale. It even has little guppies in the pond.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV6N1pk_Kd4&feature=related

17

A couple of weeks ago I visited the Miniatur Wunderland train show in Hamburg. Their Scandinavian port scene features real water - some 30 tons of it, with R/C - (later GPS-) controlled ships. Quite frankly - I was disappointed by the looks of it. Nothing seems to look more unrealistic as real water on layouts.

I talked to one of the owners, and he said, that they have had a lot of trouble with the water. They cannot tint it, because that would foul up the pumps and filters they have to use, and they have to put chloride into it, turning the water into waste material, which cannot be easily disposed of.

18

About the only way I could see this working is if it were a short trip from the pump and back to the reservior and through the pump again. If you had a plastic tube running up to the top of a water fall a few inches (6 or less) and had the water pool up at the bottom and the water fell down into it. It would be kind of like you adding one of those desktop or shelf fountains to your layout. You could probably use the parts out of one of those shelf fountains to make the system work.

The longer the “river” the more complcated it would be and its not worth it. Adding real water would really only be for that “wow look at that, cool” factor and not for the realism that model water would ad.