Any suggestions for a non-sound decoder for my new baby?
Rich
Need to check the amp draw with the proto E units and PAs. They tend to draw upwards of an amp before getting broke in…take apart the trucks, remove all the factory grease and put something better in there. If you can get the amp draw under control, consider a Lokpilot basic (there is a new version with BEMF) or Lokpulot 4.0…they feature find motor control. David B
Thanks, David, good advice. I just bought two new PAs, probably have been sitting in the box for 10 years or more.
Rich
Rich,
Yeah, if the first run, scary high amp readings. I sold mine and swapped shells around so I ended up with a second run PA-PB set. I used the NCE D13SR in them, which is virtually plug-and-play. Can send a pic if you want a peek. Makes for a clean install.
How do you know if you have the first or second run?
What is the best way to measure the amps?
Rich
Rich,
I think these pics should help. If you loco looks like the chassis on my PB, it’s second run with the better motor. No lights on a B unit, but A unit will look the same except more wiring. The motor on the first run is some squarish look chunk IIRC and I think the weight that surrounds the motor on this one was different, too. Been a few years.
To measure amps, you either have to put a meter in series with the circuit with a wired one or use a “clamp-on” ammeter. It must be rated above the anticipated load. The fancier clamp-on ones don’t need to be wired in, but not sure they would work with something this small.
Anyway, here’s a top view.
And a view with the DCC board out of the cubby hole where it sits. Note the chassis is turned 180 degrees from the previous pic.
A side view.
Front of PB, with DCC board nested on top.
The DC board. Note how the 8-pin is sitting there, but not all connections go to it.
If the leads with the new decoder ar long enough, you should be able to lay it where mine is on the PB. That’s the cab space on the A-unit, so the DCC baord will likely go on top of or instead of the DC board for it. But all the wires converge right under the 8 pin plug or nearby on the DC board.
Hope this helps and can probably answer any more questions.
Mike, that looks just like my PA chassis. Here is a photo of the chassis.
Rich
Rich,
Yes, it does look like the later run with the low amp motor.
If you happen to have a test track and a DC powerpack with an ammeter, that could also give you a ball park figure. If the loco is the only thing on the track, the pack’s metter should read approx. what the draw is. I’ve learned power pack meters are somewhat iffy, but all you’re looking for is a ballpark figure here. If it’s uner 1/2 amp, you good. If it’s an amp or better, then it’s first run.
I’m pretty confident that’s a later run loco you have, but with my CRS these days, I don’t always trust my memory.
Note that you may have issues with the special light for the signal/Mars light. I went with an LED, although I suppose there’s something that could make the bulb work on DCC.
The 8 pin plug actually has enough connections for F0F, F0R, and F1, but the NMRA spec leaves one pin blank so nothing fries if you hook it up backwards. However, if you use a decoder that has more than the 2 light functions, you can attach the green wire to the unused pin on the 8 pin connector and then F1 will turn the factory Mars light circuit on and off.
However, it’s a hokey system with a dual filament bulb. Pretty much any decoder’s Mars light effect is superior to the Proto dual filament thing. For best results, repalce with an LED, is using a decoder that works well with LEDs (NCE, TCS) or an ordinary bulb for those that work best with incandescent lamps (Digitrax).
–Randy
Rich,
I have 2 and used the TCS DP2X-UK. Simple, literally plug and play, and they work fine. The TCS web site has installation pics for the loco.
Dante
Just out of curiosity, is that Proto bulb a 12 volt bulb?
Rich
Rich,
I actually think it’s less than 12 volts. There’s some diodes and such on the DC board that I suspect requires something lower than 12 volts to account for the V drop going across them. And it’s a constant lighting circuit on DC. I’ve got my old bulb in my hand and there’s no identifying marks of any kind. But it is a very special bulb[I]
Before measuring the amps have a look at your meter. Mine has a separate socket for the amps function. The red lead has to be plugged into that socket or your readings will be nonsense. It is an inexpensive meter so I suspect that better quality meters may not be the same, but I have forgotten a couple of times and I couldn’t figure out why the readings I got were so high.[D)]
Dave
Even if I replace the bulb with an LED, I am curious about the voltage of the Proto bulb. How do you test it without burning it out?
Rich
P.S. I found Bruce Petraca’s site and it shows a photo of the first generation P2K PA. It looks different than mine or Mike’s PA. Bruce says that the 1st Gen draws between 3 and 4 amps. Yikes !
Yeah the early ones had some ridiculous motor. Under normal operation they don’t draw that much, but the stall is in the 3-4 amp range. That is ridiculous even for early HO back in the day, more on par with O scale. At one time, before Walthers bought them out, there was a motor trade in available for owners of those early ones. later models fixed this and have the correct motor that draws HO scale reasonable levels of current and should be fine.
The proto bulbs are either 1.5V or 3V, though they did do some with 12V bulbs. Never consistent. To test them you either need a well-controlled variable power supply (Not a power pack, they don;t have fine enough control) or, you start by assuming 1.5V. Hook up with a resistor appropriate for a 1.5V bulb - of course you need to guess current too, could be 15ma or 30ma. 15ma would use a larger resistor, so start by assuming 1.5V, 15ma. Hook it up. If it doesn’t light, or is very dim, try assuming 1.5V, 30ma. Still dim, try 3V, 15ma. Etc.
–Randy
Oops, forgot to include the link to Mr. DCC’s web site page:
http://www.mrdccu.com/install/hods/Life-Like-Proto2000-PA.htm
Rich
I have a couple of the older (1990’s) Proto E-units and FM “Erie Builts”. I just used regular 1 amp decoders, never had a problem.
From what I recall, this barnburner of a motor was only used in the one run of PAs. Thanks goodness for that, but someone decided to not repeat that mistake.
My PAs have 1.5v, 50ma bulbs.
Dante
I haven’t tested the bulbs yet, but I appreciate the info. Size is no indicator. LOL, those are some of the biggest bulbs that I have ever seen.
Rich