So I’m looking for some advice. It’s nice newbies don’t seem to get flamed here like some other places. And I did try searching first…for a while, and didn’t see what I was looking for. If there is a link I can be referred to, by all means post it.
I’m looking to attempt a Andrews Raiders thing, as I’m a bit of a Civil War buff, I loved the Disney movie, and I like the looks of the older steam engines.
As usual, I start buying before I research. Fortunately, my purchases have been limited to people, trees, and a Atlas water tower. For my train, I have 1 Tyco W&A boxcar (this is all HO by the way), and 4 W&A Athern Passenger cars. My set will only run the General, 3 boxcars, and 2 passenger cars. I may get a 2nd 4-4-0 for the Texas. I’ll need extras of this stuff cause I have no skills and I’m bound to botch a paintjob or break some stuff. Anyhow, my first request is for recommendations for the 4-4-0 engine. I’ve seen the Tyco/Mantua General and it looks goofy. Like it’s too skinny or something. I like the appearance of the Bachmann Jupiter, but I’m not convinced I could repaint it properly. However, that’s the way I’m leaning at this point. It has the working light, but I’d love to have working steam too. Any thoughts would be appreciated, even if it’s just a good site/catalog to refer too. I’d much rather look based on your experience. Just for giggles, I’ll pretend money is no object. If there are any thoughts about the stock and you care to share that also, it would be sweet. Thanks in advance. I look forward to being here, even though I won’t be able to contribute anything useful for a while.
Hello Jeff,
This is a pretty tall order. I’d start by buying a Walthers wish book from your local hobby shop.Walthers has thousands of HO products listed.
Patrick
Beaufort,SC
Dragon River Steel Corp {DRSC}
Jeff, here is a great site/club, and the only requirement is an interest in the Civil War, no dues or sign-up fee either!! The group is currently doing a virtual Andrews Raid!! - there are other links on the site including several good Southern Civil War ones!!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Civil_War_RRs/
Thanks for the link. It looks awesome and I’m gonna try it out. The main thing I was getting at in my first post is opinions on the train. I know they are subjective, so I’m hoping to get a few different perspectives. Is the Bachmann Jupiter OK? I’ve noticed some think they are OK, some think they are crap. I want it to be as accurate as I can get it, and it’s only gonna pull 5 cars. Does anybody but Tyco make a W&A General? I’m scoping out the Bachmann on ebay and I’m not sure if I should go for it or hold off.
You’ve picked an interesting prototype to model!
The reason the Tyco General looks “Goofy” is that it’s accurate to prototype! That high-hump boiler with a first course the size of a rain culvert wasn’t at all unusual for the mid-19th century. After all, the General wasn’t exactly superpower, even at the time of the Andrews raid.
There is a 4-4-0 (reputed to be the General) at the former Chattanooga Station (Now known as the Chattanooga Choo Choo - argh!) that looks just like the Tyco model. There’s an awful lot of open air between the frame and the boiler aft of the cylinders.
Have fun with your diorama
Chuck (who models a century later than the General’s time, half a world away)
Chuck has a point about the issue of the model looking like the prototype here. Many people may remember history through the movies they’ve seen about it. Then when they encounter something modeled on better data – or with more fidelity – than what they remember from the movie, it may seem that something isn’t quite right.
Given that we have more than a century of memories shaped by movies, as well as by personal recollection, this is a factor to always consider in both modeling and in how your modeling will be received. Even here, memory is implicated in my own respsonse. I don’t know that this is a fact in the case with the Disney movuie, but I suspect it is. Does anyone have a copy of the movie in order to compare it with what is considered to be a reasonably accurate model?
But the issue of the model remains important. I do know that Athearn has just relased a RTR MDC 4-4-0 and that Bachman has its own 4-4-0. It may end up that these models offer better performance, if you intend your project to be as much runners as for display. On the other hand, if your objective is the most accurate static display, then it doesn’t matter nearly so much how well things run as how accurate they are in terms of looks.
[;)]
I appreciate the responses. The problem is probably just my general technical knowledge of trains, which is essentially none. I have the Disney movie, not the Buster Keaton one, and a few books and reference material, postcards and such. I gotta tell you, there are some photos, drawings, and paintings that look exactly like the Tyco/Mantua and yet there are other photos and drawings that are more similar to the Bachmann. I know the General had to be rebuilt a couple times, but it is confusing to the uneducated. I guess I have more research to do, but it doesn’t sound like there are a whole lot of choices on the market anyway.
You can download the Buster Keaton movie free from the Library of Congress. http://www.archive.org/details/movies
What you need to keep in mind, though, is that none of the movies used the original General. It’s on display at a museum in Kennesaw, Georgia, near the site of the Andrews Raid. The locomotives in the movies are all from the Sierra Railroad in California, a steam tourist line.
You should be able to find pictures of the General on the Internet by looking for the museum’s web site in Kennesaw, if they have one.
The real Texas and General are now located in the Atlanta, Georgia area, one at the Kennesaw, Georgia Railroad Museum, the other at the Cyclorama in Grant Park in Atlanta. Not being a great Civil War buff (that’s almost blasphemy for a Southerner) I don’t know which one’s where.
The Atlas water tower is a PRR prototype and probably from a later era. There is a book called “Mr. Lincoln’s railroads” that will give you a lot of visual information. I suspect it is out of print but could be had from Amazon or E bay. I used to have a copy but somebody borrowed it and didn’t return it.
Somebody claims the General is displayed in Chattanooga, somebody claims it’s displayed in Kennesaw, GA. Interesting. Not having been in either place I can’t comment on the matter. I believe the Texas, the other engine in the chase, is displayed somewhere too, although I not know where.
I do know Kennesaw, GA is the present day name of the place called “Big Shanty” in Civil War times, where the chase began.
Although the movies dod not use the original General, it was — believe it or not — very much operable in recent years. It was displayed at the New York World’s Fair in 1964, having gotten to that site by crossing New Haven’s (today Amtrak’s) Hell Gate bridge under its own power. Quite a site in New York city!!!
The locomotives in the Disney film did not come from the Sierra Railroad. They were from the B&O Museum in Baltimore.
The Disney film was shot in 1957 on the Tallulah Falls Railroad, a southern short line that I believe is now long abandoned. From accounts I have read of the Andrew raid of 1862, I will say the Disney film is well done — pretty historically accurate. Never having seen the Buster Keaton fim I can’t comment on it.
The Tyco/Mantua General is a reasonably accurate model of the General as it appeared after a major rebuild shortly after the war (1869?). It is a great looking 1870s engine. I have been told that the General as built and during the raid actually had an outside frame, not just the inside frame that came from the rebuild.
The dies for the Mantua model were cut in the '50s, and reworked several times. Model Power now owns the dies, and has re-issued a few Mantua items. One of my “to do” projects is to build a kit version of the General which I bought on eBay. I have never decided whether to modernize it with the Cary Pittsburg boiler kit or not since I model 1900.
Rivarossi produced - also sold under the AHM and IHC names - some V&T prototypes - the Genoa and Reno I believe. These were built to approximately 1/76 scale instead of true 1/87 to make room for mechanisms. The Rivarossi locomotives also have/had very deep flanges. These are also 1870/1880 vintage.
Tyco’s Rogers 4-6-0 (1st offered as the Hooterville Cannonball of the TV show “Petticoat Junction” in 1966) suffers from the same 1/76 affliction, which gives it a very over-size cab in comparison to accurate HO models. Again, an 1880s vintage design.
The UP/CP models (Jupiter) made by Bachmann were made for the train set market. Consequently, their detailing is not as fine nor as prolific as many would like. Flanges tend to be sharper and deeper than current standards.
The Roundhouse 4-4-0 is a generic 1890s design that actually uses their “Old Timer” 2-8-0 boiler (nothing that wrong with this) from a Baldwin design used by the Colorado Midland. The Bachmann 4-4-0 is based on Maryland and Pennsylvania designs built around 1905. Initial Bachmann production is a model of a modernized version as it appeared in the '30s. Both of these would be large for a Civil War era layout.
All HO models of early, small steam tend to su
I just saw Buster Keaton in “The General” last month on the TMC Silent Sunday. Other than the basic premise of the Union spies stealing a train and some of the natural things that entails, and the hand cart flying off the track at the break in the rail, it does not even attempt to be historically acurate. I got the impression it was primarily filmed to be a comedy. I understand that he did all the stunts himself.
I have not seen the Disney film for years, but as I recall it was accurate on most major points and as far as it went. The last time I watched it was right after I had read a couple of accounts of Andrews raid (for history class). I was disappointed that it left out some of the detail. I’ve always been surprised at some of the silly mistakes Andrew’s raiders made that could have really prolonged their capture.
Everyone also tends to forget that there were really three locomotives involved, and the role the old “Yonah” played in the chase.
All of the early 4-4-0 locomotives look out of proportion to me. I’ve always wondered how they were able to keep enough steam up with those tiny boilers.
I saw a citation earlier in the thread but don’t remember which of these it was. Sorry for any duplication:
Railroads In The Civil War: The Impact Of Management On Victory And Defeat - Clark
Civil War Railroads and Models - Alexander
Civi
I do have the General and the Texas pictorial History book. I also have some 60’s postcards, and some literature from the Kennesaw museum. There are many pics, and some do look different to me. I have to admit I think I’m being swayed towards the Mantua/Tyco one, although I would like to have a steam feature. Anyhow, my rough layout will consist of a Lacy hotel (based on a sketch from the book) with the Confederate camp across the tracks. A ways up I’ll have a bridge over the Etowah, then the Iron Works where the Yonah will be (probably just stationary). I’ll have Kingston at about the 1/2 way mark. The water tower will be somewhere. I’ll have the tunnel and the bridge they attempt to burn towards the end of the run. How am I gonna pull this off? Who knows. But it looks good on my drawing[:D] BTW, it doesn’t have to be dead-nuts accurate, as the only person I’ll be trying to impress is me. My family and freinds will go “Oh that’s nice” and move along. I love most of them anyway! Thanks to everyone for their input. Not to beat a dead horse, but I’ll still accept any input based on your experiences.
If you’re asking about experience with the Mantua/Tyco General, I have two of them, one since the mid 60’s. Both run great and since they use the old Mantua cast zamac boiler and frame (it even has a block of zamac in the cab for extra weight) it is probably one of the best pulling engines of such an early prototype. They’re easy to service and repair and they show up on Ebay regularly, as kit and RTR.
I even have one as a kit that I haven’t assembled yet.