Anyway Chip, I tend to do both the trackwork and roughed-in scenery at the same time. Since I generally build linear shelf-type layouts, space is at a premium, and it helps to have at least my major scenic elements (be they structures, bridges or hills) around at the same time that I’m working out where the tracks will be. This is especially important to me since I don’t like to compromise all that much with my structures; I’ll reduce the amount of track in a scene if having too much makes my structures overly narrow or compressed beyond believability.
I’m a slavish follower of LDEs, since I’m modeling a specific place at a specific time. But even with all of the pre-planning that goes into my layout, I still need to have track and scenery around at the same time, since paper doesn’t translate to reality very well (ever build a house? Blueprints change all the time!).
Mark,No…Once I plan everything I stick to those plans.Of course I learn those lessons years ago through a HO club that had planned the layout well with good layout planning disciplines…
To my mind any changes is done because of poor planing plain and simple.One should study layout design principles BEFORE designing his/her first layout…By doing this they will make fewer design errors on the drawing board.
Of course as long as modelers thinks its ok to by pass good layout planing disciplines then IMHO they will continue to stumble through layout designing and building and change things as they go.
As for me I design as I go following good layout design
As a licensed project engineer I work with other project engineers and architects on a daily basis. In my 10 years of experience I have never, ever witnessed nor heard of a project that went from start to finish without any deviation from the original prints. That’s why a revision block is printed on every drawing, they are intended to be used.
I also believe that the engineers that stick closest to the original prints have the worst outcome in the end. These are the engineers that are so rigid and against change that they fail to see their may be a better way.
Case in point, my original intent for my layout was to have a large copper mine at the end serviced by my railroad. The original design (which has now gone through over 30 revisions) had this copper mine in place. After visiting the towns in NM that I am modeling I got the feeling that I really needed less mining and more stock pens. I have since altered the original to include this, which involved some track changes, but not much. Bad design? Not at all. Either would have worked well from a d
Engineer or not, I agree with you completely. A plan should never be more than a roadmap, and when you come to an obstacle, doesn’t one look for an alternate…a detour? I found, once I got to building my yard, that I had to invert it for it to work. It was great on paper, but once I had made all those cumulative minor deviations until the yard work came due, I had no choice but to turn it over. Am I ever glad I did, because I now ask myself…“What was I thinking!!!” I had the back of the station facing the operating pit, and that would have meant the passenger trains partially hidden when parked there. Duuh!
Everyone has their preferred way of working - some are of the plan-as-you-build persuasion, while others, like the aforementioned John Allen, are meticulous planners. Most of us are somewhere in between those two, I think.
For me, my likes have evolved tremendously over the years. What I like now did not appeal to me at all fifteen years ago (the CB&Q, that is), and may not fifteen years in the future. My layout plan evolves as I work, as I obtain more information about specific prototype locations and decide whether or not to incorporate newly discovered details into the layout.
While some may consider a plan built with no changes to indicate an overly dogmatic approach to model railroading, it could well be that the builder is just a fantastic planner who prefers to work out each detail before they begin.
Whatever works best for each individual - in this hobby we have room for the entire spectrum, and can enjoy the debate while we go on in our own preferred way.
el-capitan said:
To say that a project as complex as a club layout, with all the aspects from benchwork and track work to electrical and scenery, can be designed perfectly without flaws and executed precisely as planned is a bit arogant. Forgive me if I am skeptical.
That is your privilege.However,that is exactly the way it went down from start to finish.In 11 months and 17 days we ran our first test train from point to point.
And yes we are arrogant because skeptics said it couldn’t be done because yada,yada,yada.These layout “experts” had no idea what a motived crew could do with professional electricians and other blue collar workers could do.There was 2 finish carpenters that kept us honest and on track as we built the benchwork.
I just can’t picture project engineers and architects running around like chickens with their heads chopped off changing things at a whim…Nothing would ever get built.
Brakie, I work for a company that produces foam seat cushions for GM. The design engineers make 100’s of changes to vehicles before and during their model run. Yes, they do sometimes run around like chickens with their heads cut off.
I agree that with a hobby you should generally do what appeals to you, but some parts of the layout require other parts such as benchwork before track laying, track laying before running trains, etc. Nothing says you have to do all the bench work before any tracklaying or all the track laying before running any trains, but you have to do some of it.
As for drywall - I have done just enough to know that I don’t want to have to redo it because I forgot to do the plumbing or wiring first.
Happens a lot more than you would think. Unfortunately, most of us involved in projects in the real world are not as perfect at planning as your club was. Somebody comes along with a better idea after we have started. Or a new component or material is developed that would make our final product much better. If I remember right, your club rejected DCC. If the decision had been the other way, you would have had a host of changes. [;)] Back in my world, occasionally some of the components we use in the design have been made obsolete and can’t be supported (no parts to fix when it breaks) as our customer wants. And the most common problem with projects is that the customer changes their mind (or has their mind changed by events) about what their “givens and druthers” are before the project can be completed. Then comes the scramble to incorporate the new idea or component without driving costs. Or we have to convince the customer the new idea is really that good and worth the extra $$. I have seen both electronics and construction projects cancelled over some of these issues.
Just life in the (my) real world.
That said, I deal in exclusively in small layouts where options are really not all that many. Using open grid with handlaid track gives me the opportunity to get to the “Homasote in place (no track)” stage first. Then I can easily switch to at least getting the basic scenery features in. Obviously, I don’t want to to get to very detailed or delicate scenery before laying the track. But as others have pointed out, this is the point where any need for changes becomes obvious. Then back to track, but I enjoy and feel like a real ra
I think that this is taking it a bit far. There are always times that a contractor who is installing something like pipe gives me a call and asks if he can reroute a pipe to save half a day. Or an operator of a machine suggests something that could be done better. A good project manager will have the flexibility to make changes that will improve the overall outcome of the project while still keeping the project on time and under budget. Poor project managers are unable to be flexible in these matters and thus the finished product is less than ideal.
Being flexible is not running around with our heads chopped off and I never act on a whim. Things change and we need to adapt when they do, or as Yoda would say “Always in motion, the future is.”
el-capitan,That’s the mental picture I got…I could see project engineers and architects running up to the construction superintendent waving a peace of paper yelling “Wait! Wait! I have yet another change for you!” [:O]
Yes,I know small changes needs to be made and I also know when all contractors has received their bid approval and construction starts every little change will cost $$$$ for the added material and man hours needed for that change…As the old saying goes "Nothing but,nothing is free and as you know there are such things as construction budget and the thunder it brings down when a project goes over budget especially for things that should have been planned for on the drawing board…
You are exagerating to make your point. Even the best and most professional engineers, architects, project managers and investors have changes to deal with. Those changes come from changing business requirements, newly discovered technical information and unforseen issues like changes in funding, labor and materials. The project management institute methodolgy has significant change management process to handle these unforseen and or unplanned changes. I am confident few things get built in this world exactly to the original plan. The laws of unintended consequence and murphy are predictable only in their unpredictabilty.
That your club was able to execute flawlessly is admirable, albiet very hard to believe. No changes at all in your club’s plan? None at all? Every measurement, board cut, every strand of wire, ever spike and tie, each handlaid turnout worked perfectly, every hole drilled was in the exact location, everything preplanned and executed flawlessly, meaning the first time? That’s the ground and the picture you’ve staked out. Pretty tough real estate to protect.
Having been an engineer for most of my life (mostly in defense and aerospace), I can tell you that engineers, at least, spend more of their time running around like chickens with their heads cut off than not. The reason - most of them don’t have the brains, the sense or the committment to be good engineers. If the right 70 percent of them were fired, the products they design would work better and be a lot more durable.
That your club was able to execute flawlessly is admirable, albiet very hard to believe. No changes at all in your club’s plan? None at all? Every measurement, board cut, every strand of wire, ever spike and tie, each handlaid turnout worked perfectly, every hole drilled was in the exact location, everything preplanned and executed flawlessly, meaning the first time? That’s the ground and the picture you’ve staked out. Pretty tough real estate to protect.
Only against those that believe changes must be made.No…There is no hand laid switches or track…We used Atlas code 100 track and switches.Atlas switches is a breeze to install.
Unlike most clubs I been a member of,this club is 90% blue collar workers that ranges from laborers to finish carpenters from forklift operators to truck drivers.From a Security Guard to a store manager…We are bless with 2 Electricians and one Electrical contractor…These men did the wiring.We had 2 finish carpenters that did 99% of the measuring and cutting…Measure once and cut once.
Things went smooth and fell into place thanks to proper planing and execution of those plans…
Again poor planning leads to changes and waisted time and money.
I spent a lot of time in the planning stage. That said, I can’t know everything about the hobby, nor can I foresee those things I didn’t think of. I’d tell you what those are when I think of them. I’ve been a contractor and things happen–there is always something.
I’m going to follow the plan as closely as possible, but if I need to, I’ll make corrections.