i have the same problem with this (9/09 ish) as i did with the cascade and timber trail project: a single reversing loop. once you have reversed through it, you can’t return to your original direction unless you back through the loop. i realize space is at a premium, but, to me, this is a flawed design.
With very limited space, you are lucky enough to get one reversing loop, let alone two. You can get two reversing loops with a figure eight type design and four switches, but you loose the operational opportunities with the sidings. I personally don’t care for a simple figure eight type design. It is a little too toy-like. I have given up any reversing loops on my layout because they take up too much room.
Earl
My layout is larger than 4x8, but I put in a Y. This will allow me to reverse any train any time I like. I do have to back up to change directions though. This has not been a problem though. I don’t like cars with sliding shoe pick ups though because I seem to always have problems backing through switches so I have removed all of them from my operating trains and only use them on sidings that I can pull through or at opeating accessories such as the milk platform or stockyard.
In view of the 4x8 foot size limitation I think that both the cascade trail and this year’s retro project layout track plans are very nicely done. I’m a toy train fan, and I don’t much care for fastrack (too noisy) so I really dig the 027 layout in the current issue.
Pete
I am baseing my current layout on the Cascade and Timber Railroad but with more of an Industrial theme. I just wish CTT had given us an idea as to what to expect as far as the cost of building it. Being relativily new to this, at least the scenery part, I was caught off guard by this. I had no fastrack, just regular 3 rail “O” gauge track. My previous layouts have all been the Indoor/outdoor carpeting on the sheet of plywood. My son kept asking to build a rael layout! Ha! Where is he now that he has lost intrest and has left me on my own. I think if they had created this layout before the Cascate and Timber l might have been able to save just a wee bit of $$$$$. Anyway, keep up the good work CTT!
I agree with Earl that the figure 8 reversing loop looks too toylike and takes up even more room. I wouldn’t call either layout flawed, it’s more of a compromise in a small space and both are great small layout designs. Real trains back up onto sidings and model trains are also capable of going in reverse, so I don’t see the problem with having to back through the reversing loop. Backing up is more challenging if the train is long (derailments) but it’s all part of the real world adventure of operating model trains.
I have a few suggestions that I think might improve the layout:
o Let the siding from the inner loop continue straight southwest rather than turning west. It will be the same length, will eliminate a possible derailment, and will give a much longer straight track that can accommodate multiple operating accessories.
o Shorten the inner loop somewhat in the east-west direction by removing the short (yellow coded) sections, detaching it from the outer loop at the southeast corner, to allow two trains to run continuously without interfering.
o In the southwest corner, put in a second crossover, a mirror image of the one that’s there, to restore the ability to cross freely between loops.
o Use some O34, especially in the outside loop. An O34 curve will fit nicely between the crossovers in the southwest corner. (What’s more “retro” than O34?)
o Turn the ZW 45 degrees counter-clockwise, to let the outer loop come closer to the southeast corner and improve the clearance between it and the (shortened) inner loop.
Bob,
Good Suggestions.
Earl
Even if the track plan isn’t changed, I think rotating the ZW would make it look like it was planned to be there instead of “well, it fits here”
J White
I like these small layout projects. Changes can be made to fit the layout space and track plan. There are more of these layouts than anyone could count. And while fancy is nice, I’d rather say “I did it myself”.
I like the simple layouts that CTT has been concentrating on. They are better for young kids, and learning adults…
Anyone know what kind of grass carpet they used in the retro design? It’s pretty much exactly what I’m looking for.
Wes
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22371035@N03/3733967184/:
This compact layout that I built in a hurry last month combines a lot of action, and directional options. Its chief limitation is train length which can be resolved by enlarging the O-31 loop near the 45 degree cross-over. As it is, the layout is 31 inches x 13 feet; constructed on two 36" hollow core doors.
For rolling stock, the smaller steamers, and or switch engines, or a single F3 with 6454 type cars or three fundimension heavyweights will navigate the layout very well.
Prairietype
You can get two reversing loops in a small space if you bend them back toward the middle of the layout and have them overlap. Use two crossovers, and it makes and interesting layout. If you use non-derailing switches, the train can run without human intervention.
Well, the wiring installment is out. Unfortunately, it is an example of an all-too-common electrical mistake–the wire is sized according to the layout area: “The wire we used…16-gauge solid copper–is heavier than we needed for a 4 x 8-foot layout.” The authors go on to recommend use of 18 AWG instead, because it is easier to get into the “Fahnstock” (sic) clips of a Lionel lockon.
The problem here is that this layout is powered from a ZW transformer, which can put out 15 amperes before its circuit breaker trips. Eighteen AWG is heavy enough to carry only 7 amperes safely. With 15 amperes, its temperature rise will be 4 times greater than normal. Fourteen AWG is the smallest wire that can be used safely with a ZW. How you get it into a Fahnestock clip is to splice a short piece of smaller wire to the end of the heavier feeder. If you make the splice under the table, under the clip, it also makes track and electrical maintenance easier.
But the train doesn’t draw even 7 amperes; so what is the problem? There is no problem–until a fault occurs, something to do with a derailment, perhaps. Then the insulation melts off and the conductors begin burning through the wood. “Waukesha, we have ignition!” If one must use small-gauge wire with a big transformer, about the only way to make it safe is to put an external circuit breaker between the transformer and the layout wiring, sized appropriately for the wire used. But I think using heavier wire is simpler.
I find that interesting…
So I should use 14 gauge with any transformer near the power of a ZW?
I would like to use the correct size wire for safety and wouldn’t mind incorporating a fail safe of sorts like you mentioned. I’m assuming a search will find me more info on the correct size and type of fuse. Would you use a fuse for each block or just one between the toggle switches and transformer?
What about the wiring of the blocks and toggle switches to the transformer… Does this look good? I have 35 years experience of temporary Christmas layouts and have never done blocks.
[quote user=“lionelsoni”]
Well, the wiring installment is out. Unfortunately, it is an example of an all-too-common electrical mistake–the wire is sized according to the layout area: “The wire we used…16-gauge solid copper–is heavier than we needed for a 4 x 8-foot layout.” The authors go on to recommend use of 18 AWG instead, because it is easier to get into the “Fahnstock” (sic) clips of a Lionel lockon.
The problem here is that this layout is powered from a ZW transformer, which can put out 15 amperes before its circuit breaker trips. Eighteen AWG is heavy enough to carry only 7 amperes safely. With 15 amperes, its temperature rise will be 4 times greater than normal. Fourteen AWG is the smallest wire that can be used safely with a ZW. How you get it into a Fahnestock clip is to splice a short piece of smaller wire to the end of the heavier feeder. If you make the splice under the table, under the clip, it also makes track and electrical maintenance easier.
But the train doesn’t draw even 7 amperes; so what is the problem? There is no problem–until a fault occurs, something to do with a derailment, perhaps. Then the insulation melts off and the conductors begin burning through the wood. “Waukesha, we have ignition!” If one must use small-gauge
Use 14 AWG or heavier for a 15-ampere transformer like a ZW or Z. Use 16 AWG or heavier for a 10-ampere transformer like a KW. Use 18 only for a small transformer, like a 1033.
For the retro layout, in which only one transformer output is being used, there is a need for only one external fuse or circuit breaker, upstream of the block-control switches. I prefer automatically-resetting automotive circuit breakers, which are easy to find and closely duplicate the type built into the transformers. Fuses blow faster than necessary to protect the wiring and have to be replaced when they blow; but they are perfectly safe.
For one train, what they did was fine. For multiple trains, you need a way to assign each block to one of your transformer outputs. The simplest arrangement is a single-pole-double-throw-center-off switch per block to select between two transformer controls, for example, the A and D outputs of a ZW. To run trains, you assign blocks as needed so as to keep each train on the same control all the time, avoiding running across block gaps from one transformer output to the other, which can be dangerous.
When using multiple transformer outputs, you should put an external circuit breaker in series with each output, since the internal breaker does not protect against connecting one output to another, whether deliberately or accidentally.
Great reply. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I always used a KW for the longest time and remember frying a wire or 2. Usually running too fast for 027 curves or some derail prone train or switch and lets not forget tree tinsel.
Seems that I often use the same wire provided from starter sets and hook up to KW without giving it thought. Not sure what transformer I will use on my layout yet. But will make sure the wiring is correct for the given transformer before proceeding with the block wiring and so forth. Thanks.
I just started my subscription to the magazine and I am trying to get a copy of the sept 09 and oct 09 magazine to build the retro layout. But they are sold out. Does anyone know where I could download or find the original two articles? Thanks
I just checked with Customer Service and both are in stock. Call 800-533-6644.