Can anyone tell me if this is a reverse loop?
Is a automatic reverse loop module needed if I am running dcc trains only…no dc(analog)?
Thanks
Nope.
A reverse loop allows the train to return in the opposite direction along the same path. With that diagram its not possible.
Good Luck
Jeremy
Alright then next question…if I am running a 100% dcc setup with multiple trains on this track…do I need any insulators?
Nope, but I’m not familiar with all DCC systems either.
However most if not all DCC systems have a different address for each Loco, in which you program. In essence you can have muitiple locos controlled by one cab on one loop and have independent control over each. There are limits to the amout of cabs a single controller can handle. But yes you can run a train on either loop in either direction and have ful control without much more than a pair of feeder wires.
Another factor would be amps drawn, and if the unit can handle the amount of power necessary to move each loco.
Cheers
Possibly, You may need to put insulated joiners where your (4) crossovers are to eliminate a short circuit depending on the Make/Model of your turnouts.
Personally, I would put them in at the crossovers no matter what. I would also put Insulated Joiners between each pair of switches on the inner and outter loops, effectively giving you (4) individual “power districts” with their own “power feeders”(each end of each loop). You will never know there are insulated joiners there, and if you ever decide to install something like a Digitrax PM42<?>, (you can isolate any potential problems of shutting down the whole layout if you have a derail in one section in which the loco shorts between the rails), you won’t have to take up any track to install the joiners later.
I see no NEED for insulators unless you plan to add detection later.
But you may WANT to add insulators for troubleshooting or future detection decisions.
Hi, DCC would have nothing to do with needing insulators. The type of turnout would. If you have insulated frogs you are good to go. If you have live frogs you need to insulate the frog rails.
Tim.
You are correct. I stand corrected. Mea Culpa!
If dcc has nothing to do with insulators then please explain more…I thought insulators generally were for 2 purposes, 1. To prevent reverse loop, and 2. To allow multiple areas to be powered seperately for analog train use. Since dcc trains do not need track power to be seperated in order to run more than one “dcc” train, I do not not see the necessity in using insulators except for diagnosing or prevent total shutdown due to short. Therefore when using a 100% dcc system I only see the need to use insulators when having a reverse loop. Also powered or unpowered frogs what would be the difference in a 100% dcc system.
Sorry for ramblin on…But can someone explain in better detail if I am wrong, again, specifically in a 100% dcc system.
DCC has the ability to detect the presence of trains in a block and take action based on that. To do that, it must be divided into blocks. If you don’t intend to use that capability, then you don’t need blocks.
DCC can use detection blocks to operate track signals, or railroad crossing signals automatically. It can automatically throw a switch when a train is approaching it from the back side and it is set improperly, etc. On a large layout with a lot of trains, blocks allow you to divide it into separate power districts with multiple power supplies.
If you don’t intend to do any of that stuff, you don’t need blocks. With one big block, you can still run multiple trains independently, even in opposite directions on the same track.
roger that, I understand…I think…basically for a simple layout and design, I am correct in my theory. However the point is with insulators I can create seperate blocks and expand the amount of things that can be controlled via dcc.
WHOA!!!
Please see my first post first…
Then, to expand, or restate in a different manor, The control system has nothing and everything to do with Insulated rail joints.
In a DC system, you are correct in that insulated joints are used for controling “blocks” of track, as well as to prevent short circuits in a reversing loop. They are also used to prevent short circuits in other track arrangements, where not as obviously as a loop, the “current” can get “turned around”. An example is at a “crossover”, which you have (4) of in the plan you’re asking about, where, as stated by someone else, if the frog is not “insulated” by the manufacture of the switch, YOU must insulate it by using insulated joiners, or slicing the rail forming a “gap”.
This last senerio is pertinant to BOTH DC and DCC. Even DCC has a path the current follows (remember, even though it is Digital, it is still Direct Current ie DC). Even in DCC where you could have “just one big block” (if it were an oval with no switches), you still need to insulate, and isolate opposing polarity electrical current to prevent short circuiting the MUCH more expensive DCC system. Also, EVEN WITH DCC you need to have some way to “reverse” polarity in a Reversing Loop, be it a toggle switch or a Digitally Controlled Module, such as the PM42 I mentioned in the previous post.(( I am not try’n to push Digitrax products, you choose what will work best for you, but I use Digitrax, and it is what I am familiar with.)) The PM42 module I mentioned i
Thanks King!
Actually I have turned to forums for help because it seems to be the best way to find real case scenario help. Books and websites explain simple or typical situations but thing never really layout the simple way. And I will take with a grain of salt everything I learn from others and make my own assessment. But it is easy to see after reading everyones responses that it is a confusing subject, and I appreciate everyones help.
KingConrail:
Now that you have totally confused him, why don’t you ask him what kind of switches he has or plans to buy. Most switches don’t have live frogs.
I acknowledged yesterday that you were correct about having to isolate live frogs, so you are not offending me. I just think you are puting in too much detail and confusing a novice.
Phoebe Vet,
Let me start by saying that I truely respect your knowledge and opinions. I have come to find that your posts are generally informative and well written, making them very understandable. I want to also reiterate, I was not trying to offend you, or put you or your opinions/thoughs down.
I would ask that you re-read my last post. I believe that what I was conveying to the OP’r was very clearly written, and very to the point. I don’t feel that what I was saying was at all confusing. Now I will acknowledge, I have been learning and using DCC for most of the time I have been a serious Modeler. I have never used DC control with “blocks”, so maybe I am bias that generally speaking DCC is not complicated. Sure, the learning curve is much broader, and there are many more possibilities in DCC, (as I noted of your suggestion for “future” use of “blocking” for detection and signaling use).
If you have taken the time to re-read my post, I did ask if the OP’s turn-outs/switches were 100% DCC compatable, which in this case is VERY relavant as he is using (8) of them. I will never consider myself an expert in this hobby because I know that I will always be able to learn something new, no matter how long I pursue this endevor. I do not consider myself a novice either, and I’ve had some experience with this issue. I want to pass along what I can to help this person avoid some costly mistakes that I have made.
My experience: I bought a couple Shinohara curved turn-outs at my LHS, that after researching, were su
Hi, this is a response to no one in particular, but one thing was mentioned is one of my pet peeves. The term “DCC compatible turnout” I believe is a falsehood. Think about this, why would a command system care about a turnout? It doesn’t! There are two types of turnouts electrically, live frog and insulated frog. A live frog has power to frog which will require an insulated gap on the frog rails to prevent a short circuit. This term DCC compatible came about due to some switches having poor construction that would create a short when a train ran through them. This short would occur whether DCC was used or not, but with DCC the short is noticeable due to the fast acting circuit breaker in DCC systems. If your track and wheels are in gauge you should not have any problems with quality turnouts.
DCC puts AC current on the rails, just like DC, still need to insulate both rails for reversing sections. DCC can control a non DCC loco by skewing the pulse one way or the other.
I use Shinohara on my railroad, my oldest installed turnout is about 15 years now and still works fine. I prefer a live frog and cut the needed gaps where I want them. Not saying Shinohara is the best, just saying they work for me, your mileage may vary.
Tim.
King:
Let me apologize if I sounded like I was seeking an argument. That was not my intent. I was just trying to simplify.
I have been involved in training people in the workplace who have no pre existing knowledge of the subject being taught. One thing I have learned is that too much information presented at a time tends to cause people to lose focus, and feel overwhelmed. When that happens, the learning stops.
Everything you said was true. My position was that it was more than he needed to know at this particular time. His knowledge is obviously limited or he would have known he did not have a reversing section. Once we taught him that he didn’t need to worry about reversing, I’m for not discussing that aspect any more.
Let me try a simpler approach to the live frog issue. What you said is correct, but it sounds complicated.
DC or DCC is irrelevant to this issue. A short circuit is the same for either.
The frog is the small odd shaped piece where two rails come together in the middle. On a switch that has a powered frog, the outside rails are always powered just like any other track. The two center rails, which are attached to the frog MIGHT be powered by the frog, and therefore will change polarity when the switch is thrown. They must therefor be insulated from the rail of the track section to which they are joined or they will cause a short on the side the train is not going to. If they are NOT powered by the live frog, then they get their track power from the section to which they are attached and Cannot be insulated or they will be dead. Most switches available in the local hobby shop have insulated frogs, in fact many of the frogs are plastic, and so it is not a problem.
Solution: ASK the person from whom you buy it if it has a powered frog and then act accordingly.
There is a good article in the magazine that has diagrams.
[quote user=“timlange”]
Hi, this is a response to no one in particular, but one thing was mentioned is one of my pet peeves. The term “DCC compatible turnout” I believe is a falsehood. Think about this, why would a command system care about a turnout? It doesn’t! (right, only because a Command Station does not have feelings) There are two types of turnouts electrically, live frog and insulated frog A live frog has power to frog which will require an insulated gap on the frog rails to prevent a short circuit. (Exactly true, as stated in most of the previous posts). This term DCC compatible came about due to some switches having poor construction that would create a short when a train ran through them. (WRONG! the term was coined in response to people believing that they did not NEED any insulated joints when using DCC, the whole intent of the disscussion on this thread.) This short would occur whether DCC was used or not, (not exactly true, in DC “block” control, the joints would be insulated, thus not causing the short circuit) but with DCC the short is noticeable due to the fast acting circuit breaker in DCC systems. (again, not exactly, the short is noticed because of the elimination of insulated joints, or “gaps”, because again, SOME people think that DCC means no need for insulated rail joints) If your track and wheels are in gauge you should not have any problems with quality turnouts. (Completely irrelivant to the thread- we are discussing Electrical Continuity of various rail joints such as reverse loops and turn-outs, not operation of equipm
It would be an honor to call you a Friend.[:)]
I would have to disagree since anything having to do with the frog power is standard wiring that you have to do on any switch DC or DCC.
The term “DCC unfriendly” refers to the tendency for the switches to short out when thrown (which has ZERO to do with the frog). It is usually due to a set of contacts used to power the points and/or closure rails. Most of the articles on making turnouts “DCC friendly” involves removing those contacts, rebuilding the throwbar and points so they would not short out when thrown.
Dave H.