Seniority is based only on time hired and in that position. Promotion and retention has no consideration on how one is / has done that job. How said!
When you are dealing with hundreds and thousands of hires it is the only so called fair way to handle things. Seniority is not only based on the date of hire but also up to the minute. It does allow for one to be able to move to jobs he likes or wants to get better hours or pay and allows him to bump down when displaced by another all withing the jobs he is qualified for and in the district where he resides or calls home. . As for being advanced to the ranks of management, i.e. Trainmaster, etc., seniority does not necessarily play a role but his abilities do and one is summoned and offered the position(s) which he may or may not accept. In railroading the Seniority have a different and far more widespread effects and uses than anti union propaganda would have you believe. It is actually a very good working tool for both labor and management.
Wrong. Promotion is based on merit, and retention is based on doing your job. Don’t do your job, and no amount of seniority is going to save you.
One would like to think that is true, but, sadly it isn’t.
Again. Seniority on railroad rosters is a way of awarding jobs not rewarding jobs. It allows for those who have seniority to bid into or retain jobs, etc. The rewarding of jobs is outside the bid and bump process to managerial positions. It is unlke, say, an office or retail or other sales jobs. Railroading and its crafts are different, in another world. Seniority is a fair and equitable way of handling the many jobs and changes that take place. When a train is eliminated or station closed or operator cancelled, the displaced has the ability to bump into another job held by one of less seniority and what follows is a series of bumps. Reverse is true of a new job: it is bid on and the one with the most seniority will win it. and his vacated job is up for bid with the bidder of highest seniority getting it. If there is no bids, it will be assigned by railroad management as they see fit, often going to the lowest seniority or off the extra board; that appointment can sometimes be turned down and it remain on the extra board until bid on.
I’ve never worked for a railroad, Henry, but this surprises me. In all of the places I know about management has an absolute right to direct the work. To refuse management’s direction is to be insubordinate. You may get away with being insubordinate once or twice but if you repeatedly refuse to accept management direction you will be fired.
Completely different world, John. In railroading it is how job assignments are made. The one with the most seniority can bid the job he wants, second gets second choice, etc. So jobs are put up for bid for those who qualify for the job. So if you are a conductor you can bid on any job opening for conductor and if you have the seniority you win the bid. If you have seniority and want to change jobs you can bid a job and take it away from another of lesser seniority. As a conductor you can only bid on jobs in your craft and not as an engineer or operator, etc. You can be bumped out of your job by one with more seniority but by one with less seniority. When you get bumped out, you can bump into another job. This is very effective and fair in that there are no managerial decisions, etc. It has created hard feelings when a guy gets bumped by a friend and loses the walk across the tracks to work but now has to drive to work; or the 8AM call is lost and you have to settle for bumping into an 8PM call. There are many intracacies, but that’s the jist of how it works. It is what you agree to when you accept employment.
I can certainly believe railroading is its own world with long established rules, Henry. What I find hard to believe is the idea than an employee can simply refuse to do his or her job.
But that’s not true…if he refuses to do his job he is disciplined or fired. By bidding on and off jobs he is following procedures assuring his income. If he bid on a job and refused to show up for that job, then he would be in the wrong…but arranging better hours or more money is not wrong or having to bid to assure a job is how it is done.
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No, seeking a better opportunity is never wrong.
Refusal to do a job is a quick trip to unemployment, except in on instance - the S word. SAFETY.
Over the years SAFETY has become paramount in the operation of my carrier. Woe be the Trainmaster whose employees have a man failure derailment or personal injury.
If personnel refuse to perform actions because of SAFETY considerations, they will rarely be challenged. Most actions in railroading take place in areas where direct supervision is not in place. Trainmasters have terrirories of 100 to 150 miles and may have 20 or more crews working in that territory at any give time and are thus unable to provide direct hands on supervision to each of the crews.
In the crafts that have seniority, the job functions of virtually all jobs in the seniority district have virtually the same job requirements as regards job skills - the differences between jobs in the seniority district relate mostly to reporting location, reporting time. What one person sees a a desireable job, another may not.
I am #1 on my roster, my prefered job is 3rd Trick (11P-7A) with Thursday & Fridays off. It works for what I want out of life - it may not work for you.
In any instance where I believe that following the orders given me pose a safety hazard, or is in violation of the operating rules or safety rules, I may refuse to perform the requested action under the “good faith challenge”.
Under this challenge, a neutral officer is called to the scene, listens to both sides of the situations, and rules on whether I must follow the order given, or not, and attempts to devise a different solution to the problem that satisfies both parties.
If the officer rules against my challenge, and I still feel it is unsafe or a rules violation and I continue to refuse to follow the order, I am removed from service pending a full official investigation.
Seniority has zero to do with discipline, although most old heads who have clean discipline records stand a good chance of receiving less discipline than say a 5 year guy with 3 or 4 incidents on record.
You may wish to go trolling elsewhere.
I think maybe we aren’t on the same page. (Henry, did you edit or change a post? I can’t find where John is quoting you, to get a better context of the sentence quoted.) You can be the best worker on the railroad, but if you have the lowest seniority and they are cutting jobs, you might get furloughed. Even though you might be better than someone with more time in, you get cut off.
Right now, partly due to the seasonal downturn, the seasonal cost cutting and the out right loss of business, we have trainmen who went from working regular to barely hanging on. A few of them are better trainmen than some who have more “whiskers” and don’t have to worry too much about being adveresly affected. Just the way it works. Although to those towards the bottom it might not seem fair, in the long run it really is.
The original poster seemed to join just to post the original comment. Makes me think it is someone who may have been adveresly affected by seniority, on a railroad or elsewhere. (If I’m mistaken, or out of line, I apologize. It’s just the impression I’m getting.)
Jeff
Jeff,
Where ever you have seniority when the economy declines you will have some very competent people who are laid off simply because they lack seniority.
The good parts of this are 1. today we have unemployment and 2. they have a right to be rehired. But for a while they may have to pump gas or do something like that to make ends meet.
John WR,
Let’s go back to the point where you turned this thread around 180 degrees. This thread is about “Seniority”. It is not about someone not doing his job. I think you may have misunderstood Henry’s remark which in part reads:
Keeping in mind the above quote and that local union rules may vary from RR to RR, around here if a man in train service was forced to an outlying job that was more than 50 miles from his “Home Terminal”, he had the right to refuse to work that job and stay home. That is a seniority issue through union rules and not an issue of insubordination. I have seen it happen.
If I misunderstood Henry I apologize.
Pretty much nailed it.
My dad had 40 years in on the CSX(EX L&N) Corbin Divi