Scratchbuilding? R-T-R? Superdetailing? The case for all.

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

From time to time here, I have read-and written comment- about scratchbuilding. Having been in the hobby for a number of years (probably longer than some of you have been on this earth) and having heard the arguments (some pretty passionate) I feel compelled to write this little treatise.

There is nothing wrong with anyone’s approach to this hobby. it is their money, time, and effort. Nor is there anything wrong with someone just wanting to use R-T-R models for whatever reasons they have.

The thing that concerns me is the approach that a lot of manufacturers are taking with R-T-R as their main efforts here. Have they taken more than an effenciency, profit-minded look here? Surely a limited amount of kit-type product would be a nice approach; if only for good-will to the hobby. I am aware that resin kits, etc are a challenge, and work up into a world-class model; but I am looking at the “level” if you will, between R-T-R and the more challenging stuff, just mentioned.

As a business owner, I will be the last guy to sully or slur someone’s philosophical approach; but as a model maker who obtains a great deal of satisfaction at the craftsman level of what I do, my thoughts are of concern for this ebbing facet of model rialroading.

It is a good feeling to take a branchline car, for instance, and super-detail it to the nines; or embellish upon one of Bar MIlls kits. In my mind, I am taking a really good kit and improving upon it. it would be hard to find words describing the satisfaction I get from doing that. It would be a shame to find I cannot find the “really fine detailed” type kits anymore; as it is, Intermountain, Red Ball, et al kits, have gone R-T-R -all the way of the peace pipe. Maybe this will catch the manufacturing end here, or maybe it won’t. My hope is that it will.

Rich

2

Rich, you make some excellent points. I find it rather curious that there seems to be a thriving cottage industry for structure kits, which in some respects flies in the face of the trends from the larger manufacturers. You mention Bar Mills, but they are just one of many smaller manufacturers that are catering to the kit building market for structures. The important point here is that they are not putting out just high-end, high-priced, “Craftsman” kits, but many very reasonably priced simple structure ideal for the beginner and intermediate modeller. The vendor list at the upcoming Expo is a nice short list of many of these small vendors. http://modelrailroadexpo.com/WELCOME.html Why is this happening with structures at a time when the rolling stock makers are seemingly going in the opposite direction?

3

As far as I know, you can get most Intermountain cars in kit form undecorated, so as a kit builder, you can also paint, letter and weather your cars. Structure kits, those cotttage, craftsmen kits have a strong appeal to many modelers who don’t really have a layout, but do dioramas, so it is a niche type market.

4

in my case if i want a 30 foot wooden dropend gon i will need to build it from scratch. wood sides and bottom, styreen for the braces etc.

5

It would appear that the rolling stock kit market is really very limited. Since assembly costs in Asia (China and others) are so low, there is not much savings between kit and built ups. So the few dollars savings is just not worth it for most people. Locomotive kits are almost gone - in HO I can’t think of any that are still in production. And I think freight cars/passenger cars in kit form will soon be gone as well - at least at the lower end. I don’t think there is enough “Goodwill” for most manufacturers to feel it’s worth the effort. You can still buy Roundhouse kits and Athearn kits at train shows for under $10 - I see them at every train show, but they must not sell because they are the same ones at every train show.

What will be interesting is to see how many structure kit manufacturers survive now that some well detailed built-ups are becoming available.

If you like kits then you need to buy them up now before they are all gone.

I think the future of the hobby is mostly RTR everything with a small niche of scratch/parts builders. Kits will be gone.

Enjoy

Paul

6

For traction: There is R-T-R for all major scales, whether it be N, HO, or O Scale. And there are excellent track systems available for HO & O Scale.

However, you are still limited by, especially in the overhead pole/wire department, to what is available as “R-T-R ready” let alone, the cost involved. What is the extra cost if “you break” the R-T-R item?

Scratchbuilding the overhead & poles provides maximum flexibility in layout design, and positioning of the poles exactly soldered as required by circumstances. Traction scratchbuilding is arguably more the norm than R-T-R – Except for purchasing R-T-R motive power (PCC, Brill, Box-Motor, GG1, etc.) – And even then, there are quite a few kitbashes, or; conversions with a shell over a 1st-class motive power motor/chassis.

3 Primers – Trolleyville Schoolhouse + 2 Guyz Trolley Forum + East Penn Traction.

7

Model railroading isn’t the only hobby shifting focus from kit building to RTR.

The RC industry has seen this same paradigm shift as well. Kit manufacturing, once the purview of the big production houses has now become the lifeblood of the cottage/garage business.

Prime reasons are cheap, offshore labor combined with lower production costs and the high demand from consumers. People today generally have less time to devote to their hobbies. They seek quicker gratification. used to be we had time to build the kits then ‘play’ with them. With less disposable time we want to get to the ‘play’ part much sooner and bypass the ‘build’ portion.

Newer generations of hobbyists are going to lose important skillsets that many of us developed in our youth. I’m only 47 but mine is probably the last generation that will know how to build or scratchbuild items. There will still be those that will be able to make their own or build kits but those individuals will be few and far between compared to what number of those ranks were just 10 years ago.

8

Hmm…interesting. I see a lot of if it’s not plastic, it’s a niche product for those “other guys” attitude. Before Athearn and Roundhouse plastic kits, wood car kits were almost the hobby standard. And updated versions of these are still available from a variety of makers, not limited to Labelle, Ye Olde Huff-n-Puff, Rem Models, etc. Rio Grande Models and others make combination kits - kits made with wood pieces, and plastic and metal castings. Plastic kits are still made. And Atlas has agreed to continue producing Branchline kits. In the meantime, excellent resin and resin/plastic combination car kits are available in a wide variety of prototypes, eras, and scales. With the addition of the resin kits, there is far more variety and far greater prototype accuracy in most all kits than there ever has been.

The complaint about the Varney, Athearn, Roundhouse, Mantua, and the like plastic car kits has always been the lack of fidelity to any given prototype. But listen to the complaints when there is no new production of them, too.

But let’s be a little bit honest with ourselves here. The impulse buys in the hobby shop or at the train shows and swap meets are going to be RTR, not kits. Very, very few of us - I’m one of those sick guys - buy a kit on impulse thinking about what it might be someday. Instead, we buy the item that tickles our fancy that we can run right home with and plunk it on the layout and enjoy it.

Second point in favor of RTR is the number of larger layouts under construction or in the likely to start st

9

Looking at this from the consumer side, no two model railroaders want the same things. All model railroaders want rolling stock, but some would be content with blocks of wood painted and decaled to look like box cars while others get actively unhappy if the tack board is one scale inch above or below its true-to-prototype location on their model of the Podunk and Northern’s only ventilated box car.

The manufacturers are in business to make money, whether they are big players who do business with China or little players who do business from their garages or spare rooms. I doubt that ANYONE has ever made the Fortune 500 catering to the wants and desires of model railroaders - or ever will.

Personally, if I want a model of a specific prototype I will:

  • Buy the RTR version, if there is one and I consider it affordable.
  • Buy the kit, if there is one.
  • Kitbash something similar, kit or RTR, into my heart’s desire.
  • Gather photos and materials and scratch-build it - as a last resort.

Sometimes that last resort is the ONLY resort. Nobody is likely to produce a kit or RTR version of that Podunk and Northern ventilated box car (rebuilt from a wrecked Wabash furniture car in 1897.)

The best part is, I DO have all of those options. So does every other modeler. And a few have still another option unavailable to me - pay some master craftsperson to build a one-off model.

As with any other discretionary expenditure, the equation is: How much do I want (fillintheblank) balanced against How much time/effort/money is (fillintheblank) worth to me. If the WANT is sufficient, time/effort/money will be provided. If not, so be it.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

10

Chuck;

You make some very good points here. You and I are of like minds I think. Mine addresses neither collections or layouts of any size, but my ultimate satisfaction. I personally know I would be unhappy with a layout full of R-T-R stuff, because I get satisfaction out of building. What the other guy does is neither any of my concern or business. My only thing here was to address the issue of declining kits by manufacturers. Personally, I can pretty much build what my heart desires with little or no trepidation-just plan the project and do it; and it matters naught in what medium. I have surely also built some disasters, but cest live. This represents a great feeling of freedom, not haughtiness or snobbery. However, I do not represent the vast majority of modellers-or even builders, for that matter; nor do I claim to.

Part of my last letter here addressed Don Tichy’s products. To me, this is the ideal kit line for a big majority of builders. his stuff is so well-done it is incredible. This by no means implies any “echelonal level”; just my feelings. he also produces a vast line of parts that are non-pariel with others.

I still maintain that there is a certain number of modellers that this and other brands of kits would greatly appeal to, and I hope [they] never go away.

11

I love to scratchbuild and kitbash and I am fairly good at both.I also buy R-T-R because that may be all there is or I deem it to dificult for my skill level.This is MY hobby.

If someone else doesn’t feel confident enough or has to busy a life to do these things they buy R-T-R so they can enjoy THEIR hobby.

I personally don’t give a rip how you enjoy YOUR hobby as long as YOU do.Just don’t try to tell me how I should enjoy Mine.

12

The points made about the disparity between the thriving market for craftsman structure kits and the dearth of anything but ready to run rolling stock are well worth considering. More than consumer demand (or lack of demand) may be behind this disparity. First, notice that the structure kit makers are all small firms that manufacture their own products domestically in small batches. Also, because they have little money to spend on marketing, they tend to maintain close, often quite personal ties with their customers through their websites and personal participation in forums and clinics. They thus generally have a better means of gauging who their customers are and what interests them, easier control over their products and production costs–and perhaps most import of all, a personalized way of supporting customers and helping them learn how to build their kits and gain satisfaction from them. All that makes them well suited to building a niche market for complicated products that will hold the interest of customers for some time by challenging their abilities.

The suppliers of almost all ready-to-run rolling stock, by contrast, are now mainly large import companies that no longer directly manufacture anything–domestically or otherwise–but who have become adept at merchandizing products built by others through media campaigns and mass sales using distributors and retail outlets.

13

Sorry for the novella but,

This year marks my fiftieth year as a model railroader. When I started anything that was RTR was more expensive than the kit of the same model. I started building Silver Streak type kits at age 8, and I still have the first one I ever built. Its been upgraded some, but I keep it as a reminder of where I was, in the hobby, at that age.

While I prefer kits, I can and do scratchbuild, but its not my main focus. Most of my engines are brass, mainly because that was the only way to get anything made in my prototype. I do have several of the new plastic “brass” but thats neither here nor there. The rest are kit builts. MDC, Bowser, and even an old Varney, that unfortunately will never see the rails again,as its come down with the “disease.”

I do prefer to build kits. All kinds of kits. Most of my cars are half Athearn and MDC, while the rest are Ambroid, Labelle, Tarus Products, Westerfield, F&C and many of the old Cannonball, Silver Streak, and the current Branchline Red Caboose, Im etc. I do not see kit building as a dieing art at all, as there are several other forums out there that deal almost specifically with kit & scratchbuilding… These aren’t forums that are seeing very little traffic, but many times are just as busy as this one is.

I also build structures the “old way” as well. Just the other day, I happened to have counted the structures that I own, and out of 57 total kits, less than ten are plastic, 13 are Campbell’s and the rest are a mixture of Timberline Branchline, Alexander, Muir, FSM, and Micro-scale.

I’m even old school with my track. Except in my staging areas where maintenance would be difficult, all my track is hand laid. All my TO’s are freehanded in place. No jigs for me. To me they’re like buying a commercial TO because you’re limited to what TO geometry they sell. I stated as such in a review I did for the old Model Railroading mag. Often times I find myself needing a TO that’s just can’t be bought period, so

14

I’m not too worried about it as eventually I hope my scratchbuilding and productivity skills to be at a level that I can build something most can’t and put those items on ebay and start a feeding frenzy to fatten my pocket book!

Even built up resin rolling stock is going as high as $200 on ebay.

15

Have to disagree with you there. I would say that teh chances of something obscure being produced is actually higher than something generic.

What are the only camelback road steamers produced (besides brass)? A 2-8-2, a 4-6-2, the 2-8-2 boiler on a 4-4-2 chassis and a 2-6-0. All of them (except the 4-4-20 are relatively rare even among camelbacks.

There are dozens of models of obscure narrow gauge or shortline cars available in resin (Mann’s Creek RR hopper cars) but nothing close to the 10’s of thousands of standard gauge wood hopper /hopper bottom gon cars.

How do you explain the 2-8-8-8-2, the 4-8-8-4’s the turbines, the Aero-train and the other obscure one off engines?

16

[:)]

17

Bruce;

Yeah, you are right about that, and it is yet another facet of getting satisfaction if you like to build. As I said before, there is nothing wrong with R-T-R, and I do not decry those who go that route. my concern is for the potential demise of the kit type model, based on possibly the asssumption by the makers that kit building is a thing of the past, so no more kits will be produced; and by that I wasn’t inferring all levels of kits would go “POOF”, just a particular level of kits, such as Red Ball, Intermountain, etc., that would satisfy a broad range of builders.

By the way; isn’t it a great thing that there is so much available to us in parts now? Good old days? My foot!

18

Rich,I haven’t scratchbuilt since I found the joy of kitbashing structures over 45 years ago…

For me I find combining kits is far better then scratchbuilding.

Still I enjoy looking at a scratchbuilt model…

As far as car kits with a million iddybiddy parts well,I never was a fan of those kits.[B)]

19

Again, I don’t think that kit building will go away. There are just too many small producers and it seems that there are also new producers, that are bringing out new kits constantly. But the situation seems to me, and the rest of you may view it differently, is that many of the RTR crowd view us as throw backs to an earlier era of modeling that will never have anything bigger than a 4 x 8.

Several years ago, I made a comment on the Atlas forums that I had found an Atlas RTR car that I forgot that I had, and that I tried to say, humorously, that I needed to do something to it, so it would fit in with my kit-built cars.

You would have thought that I had crucified Christ personally! The flames started! I was basically told that there was no way that I would ever have a layout the size that the RTR crowd was building on, or had, because I was too busy building the models, and I’d never get the enjoyment of running the models I did have!

One guy even made the comment that while I was building the models, painting and detailing the locos, that he was gonna have fun running his 24 car unit train, and that was what made his way better. He could run as soon as the car/loco he bought got home. He would run his 24 car unit coal train, when he came up with the money to buy the other 12 cars that is, and he would think of me.

I then commented that while he was waiting on buying the rest of his train, I would think of him as I ran my 50 car solid kit built coal drag on my club’s layout, pulled by one of my weathered and extremely well running brass 2-10-2’s. And run another coal drag at the same time, with another 50 cars.

For some reason, this attitude seems to me that it isn’t an isolated event as I’ve run across it in several locales personally. Some of the RTR crowd, especially the younger ones, can’t think that someone may have already been in this hobby long enough to accomplish most everything they’ve wanted to do. It’s almost like they’re th

20

[quote user=“cjcrescent”]

Again, I don’t think that kit building will go away. There are just too many small producers and it seems that there are also new producers, that are bringing out new kits constantly. But the situation seems to me, and the rest of you may view it differently, is that many of the RTR crowd view us as throw backs to an earlier era of modeling that will never have anything bigger than a 4 x 8.

Several years ago, I made a comment on the Atlas forums that I had found an Atlas RTR car that I forgot that I had, and that I tried to say, humorously, that I needed to do something to it, so it would fit in with my kit-built cars.

You would have thought that I had crucified Christ personally! The flames started! I was basically told that there was no way that I would ever have a layout the size that the RTR crowd was building on, or had, because I was too busy building the models, and I’d never get the enjoyment of running the models I did have!

One guy even made the comment that while I was building the models, painting and detailing the locos, that he was gonna have fun running his 24 car unit train, and that was what made his way better. He could run as soon as the car/loco he bought got home. He would run his 24 car unit coal train, when he came up with the money to buy the other 12 cars that is, and he would think of me.

I then commented that while he was waiting on buying the rest of his train, I would think of him as I ran my 50 car solid kit built coal drag on my club’s layout, pulled by one of my weathered and extremely well running brass 2-10-2’s. And run another coal drag at the same time, with another 50 cars.

For some reason, this attitude seems to me that it isn’t an isolated event as I’ve run across it in several locales personally. Some of the RTR crowd, especially the younger ones, can’t think that someone may have already been in this hobby long enough to accomplish most everything they’ve wanted