Bob,
I agree that folks in narrow gauge tend to scratch build, bash and build craftsman type kits more than standard gaugers. They always have. Of course many narrow gaugers enjoy it, however it has been necessary. But this is changing too. Since Bachmann introduced the excellent On30 line a lot of folks have gravitated to narrow gauge because finally there was some inexpensive RTR available. Right now there is a lot of excitement over the new die-cast/plastic RTR HOn3 locomotives and rolling stock so we may see the RTR tend take hold on HOn3 as well. While Sn3 has been a real builders scale, PBL began offering beautifully crafted brass models expertly painted and weathered many years ago. I would imagine there are a number of folks with a collection of these beautiful models and not much else. Bought or not I would be very proud of stable full of those models.
While narrow gaugers in On30 may tend to freelance the guys in HOn3, Sn3 and On3 tend to be strongly oriented toward specific prototypes. How many times have we seen pictures of yet another “as accurate as possible” Ophir Loop or someone’s detailed to the extreme D&RGW #268 sporting Bumblebee paint? What about all the concern about the RGS K27 pre wreck or post wreck details? Take a guy mode
I’m sure this is absolutely true in a few cases, but in many cases – like mine for instance – it’s not about getting a bigger pile of stuff nor to see how much I can display my great model building skills. Don’t overlook the skills needed to do the hobby other ways than the craftsman-who-builds-it-all-himself approach.
For me it’s about building a miniature empire that I can operate realistically – and about doing that in a way that’s the most achievable in less than several lifetimes given the size of the basement layout I’m building. It’s about the holistic simulation. And that takes a special skill mix to pull such a thing off well.
So to me it’s ultimately not about the “stuff” – be it handmade by me or purchased ready made from Asia – as much as it is about the comraderie I can have with my fellow model railroaders as we work to bring this thing to life. It’s about playing the roles that real railroaders would play if this thing was real.
I really don’t care much about the size of the pile of stuff per se, I care more about what it takes to increase the enjoyment level I can have with my fellow modelers. The model-building is not the end, it’s the means to an end for me. [swg]
I’ve mentioned this before on this board, but no model railroaders build anything truly from scratch.
It’s really just a sliding scale.
When you build from scratch, do you cast every part yourself, make it from iron that you mined in your backyard?
It’s a sliding scale.
The “scratchbuilder types” are on one end, and the hardcore operators are on the other end. Both could be equally “hardcore”, yet approach the hobby very differently.
One guy might have one beautiful scratchbuilt locomotive where he wound the stator in the motor himself, machined every component himself, etc., but took 15 years to do it.
The other may have a huge empire that runs like a real railroad, full of RTR equipment, but complete with hardcore rules & regulations.
(for what it’s worth, I think I’ll likely fall somewhere in between as I’m re-entering this hobby of ours…)
I was just haveing the conversation at my LHS with some of the regulars. Scratchbuilding and painting your own roads seem to be a dieing art, according to them. Takeing this from guys who are 1 and 2 generations beyond me. Personally, i think the RTR stuff, is great. it can be a lfe saver if you are 31, work 50 hours a week, have the wife, kid, dog, cat, fish, and a house to take care of. Sometimes bringing the the box home, opening it up, slapping it on the track, giving it a one “fingerswitcher” push, 10 seconds to admire it, and my traintime is done for the day.
But, that being said, I like to think I represent the new generation of “modeler’s”. I love the RTR stuff, for main reason as stated above, but it also lead me to more challenging steps such as painting and scratch building. I got the guts up to paint my own colors and even dable in my first attempt at my own building. I admit, I blew threw it, time crunch, dog’s hungry, got to get the kid to bed, but I did it. Drainpipe and left overs. Its a start.
I guess the point I am trying to make, is I imagine you will see these parts of the hobby make a come back as we age. Just like generations, its all a cycle. Guys will do the RTR, then want to add some details maybe. Then do a heavy weather and lots of details. Next thing ya know, that Craftsman kit in the back of the LHS you have been looking at suddenly, looks appealing…and not so scary
I’ve been “planning” on getting back into the hobby for I think 2 and a half years now. But all the things you mention above have kept me from doing it. If I would have just bitten the bullet and gone RTR on track, turnouts, etc., I’d probably have some trains running.
I notice this with any hobby I get into. There are many levels. Are you not a bike rider if you only ride a $500 bike? (some guys don’t think so). Are you only qualified to call yourself a guitar player if you have a $3K guitar? It goes on and on.
Life could be too short to max-out on one thing.
At the moment, I’m maxing out on family and running my own engineering consulting business (and trying to keep it in that order!). This forum has had to settle for my MRR’ing participation the past couple years.
Maybe I need to just buy some RTR stuff so at least my few minutes of MRR’ing per day will produce something more than plans.
Of course, being a design engineer, planning is tons of fun!!!
You know, it’s sort of like a company of any kind - I’ll use the example of a technical company since that’s the “world” I live in:
You have the big shot CEO guy who makes megabucks, but may not be able to turn a screwdriver. He thinks the company is nothing without him, because he runs the show. (maybe this is the hardcore operator, RTR guy - not pointing any fingers at anyone, just trying to provide examples of extremes here).
Then you have the engineers who design products. They think they’re the foundation of the company because they do the real “thinking” about the product. (maybe this is the partial RTR guy, but he does some building of his own, etc.).
Then you have the production staff who assembles the product. They think they’re the ones who make the company go because they’re “the only ones who know how to build anything…” (this is the hardcore scratchbuilder who has only built 3 items but doesn’t have enough to call a layout, etc.).
Each of these people thinks they’re the ones “doing it”, but it’s really everyone.
Alright, it’s getting late, I’ve been working too much, and I’m on analogy overdrive. Someone pull my plug for the eveni
I’ll have to scratchbuild quite a few structures for my layout, in order to get the “I/ve been there” sense I want. For example, I don’t think anyone will offer a commercial model of the Thermopolis, WY depot of the CB&Q. So if I want a close representation, I’ll have to build it myself. On the other hand, the Burlington’s Casper WY depot is a close copy of their Omaha depot, for which Walthers sells a kit. So I’ll get Casper’s depot without scratchbuilding.
How much I compromise on fidelity to prototype structures depends on how much time I wind up having to build them. I enjoy scratchbuilding, but it takes me a long time to do a structure (my Laurel depot, a free-lanced structure in the photo in my signature, took a couple of years of lunches, at work, working on and off. All total, probably over 150 hours went into it, and it isn’t overly detailed), so I’ll probably compromise more than I want just to get anywhere close to a finished appearance on the layout.
First I believe scratch building is alive and well…Just check the Walthers and you will see abundance of scratch builders needs 10 pages of it. http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=SBS&scale=H&manu=&item=&keywords=&instock=Q&split=30&Submit=Search
Sadly way to many folk thinks that forum represents the hobby as far the modeling styles,as the voice of the hobby etc.This of course is false and delusional since only a given amount of forum members are active posters.This disillusion of the true hobby is based on those that have no real contact with follow hobbyist except through forums.Then one must be careful of the “experts”“self appointed experts” and the “expert wanna bes” that mean well but,are not in touch with reality of the real world hobby says.In other words get out there and become active in clubs,the local NMRA division, talk to your LHS owner and fellow.modelers at these shops.Don’t bet the farm on everything you read in MR,RMC or any other magazine as being the current and hottest trend…The majority of the modelers that doesn’t use DCC will prove that as well as the Atlas Quantum Engineer™ Controller and BLI’s Quantum Engineer power pack.
Slow down at train shows and look around to see what others are looking it.Best way would be to spend the day at the show as a helper,dealer or a dealer’s helper.
It doesn’t take a genius to see this hobby hasn’t changed all that much in some areas.What it does take is being active in the real world hobby as out lined above…
That’s not, nor ever been, the definition of scratch building. The only enity that could live up to that definition is God! The definition, going all the way back to the the 1950’s at least (in print), has been you assemble the contents of the “kit” yourself rather than buying it ready to assemble. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch_Built gives the correct and gennerally accepted definition of the art, not something you difined philosophically from your ezchair. Fred
Well said, BRAKIE. And absolutely correct! No forum that I’ve found seems truly representative of the hobby in general compared with what you see by directly interacting face-to-face with other local hobbyists. Few traditional, highly talented hobbyists seem to participate in on-line forums, most apparently being disinterested in what goes on on-line, or are simply not of the computer generation. Unfortunately, the folks that are on-line typically think the hobby is all about RTR, DCC, modern motive power, and operations. Believe me, it is not.
I heartily agree with your suggestion that hobbyists need to get out and join local groups, round-robins, and area clubs (I’m less than enthusiastic about the NMRA, however) to see what is actually going on among hobbyists if they wi***o gain a valid profile of the way things really are.
To some degree folks have gotten more at ease using RTR and are loosing skills and motivation but time is an issue too. I agree with others that the reality of trying to build a large pike and scratchbuild a significant number of items AND have a life is nearly impossible to achieve.
I wonder how many build a more casual pike (not mega focusesd on walk around, prototype accuracy etc) and build a fun pike with a mix of kit, RTR, kitbash and scratch to whatever their hear’s desire ? Todays focus largely seems to be purpose designed and build theme layouts whether freelance or prototype based and very little left to flexible whim and creativity. Scratchbuilding seems to sometimes get left out of the shuffle compared to when it was another aspect of the hobby not lost in the drive to build a superpike.
Look at old articles from MR and RMC from the sixties and you will see some long forgotten and surpizing things, but based around the neccesity to scratchbuild at that time. I recall a series in MR in the early sixties on building common 55 ton 2 bay open top hoppers in HO as they were not available at teh time. Not only did the author describe scratchbuildg a FLEET of these but did it using straightend out old tin can material, today we would not eeven consider such a thing but would automatically go right to brass off the rack !
I am getting abck into model RR myself currently and considered eithe S scale with some RTR, kits and brass and everything else built from my own hands, a very satisfying way to go about modeling. I also considered N scale and a larger pike with mostly RTR, focus on scenery and a laong mainline layout. I went to the N scale option as I realized the S scale route would have eaten up all my spare time and there are other things I do in life that I am unwilling to give up. My wife may aslo become involved and she loves old buildings and scenery, but has no desire to mess with detailing, painting locos or scratchbuilding.
slotracer,The need to scratch build plays a major roll IF one is doing a prototype specific layout that has buildings not currently produce.This facet of the hobby seems to be the next trend in the hobby in the coming years.
Here is a link to Liz Allen’s “Scratch built” SD45X. It does contain substantial commercially available detail parts and sub assemblies but it still qualifies as a “scratch built” model according to NMRA and I agree.
Are you talking scratchbuilding buildings and scenery or actual locomotives and cars from scratch? ? which in my books does NOT include kits. I have never met anyone who builds rolling stock from scratch, just how impossible would that be to make parts for a steam locomotive?? Assembling a kit may not be too hard with basic skills, I never knew buildings were available in kit form( I just assumed if you want a building, you built it) and there are buildings already built-yikes ! ! So-- you can participate in this hobby in many ways, 1. Build everything yourself. 2. Buy and assemble kits. 3. Just buy everything assembled and stick it all over you layout.----take your pick !
Time and patience. The first is hard to find, and the other takes time to learn. Without a schedule or timetable, I started working on my layout a bit over a year ago. I thought it would be presentable by Christmas, but it didn’t bother me when it wasn’t. The parts that were done exceeded my expectations. Now, I’m relaxed and in no hurry. In fact, I kind of dread the day when there’s nothing more to do on my railroad, but at the same time I know that I will never really get here. I’ll do a bit, like tonight when I cut the last of the subway station walls and gave them their first coat of paint. Last night, well, I just ran some trains. (OK, I confess. I went through my box of parts ‘n’ people, and put construction workers into the subway station, for the next few weeks until it’s done and ready for “real people.”)
Don’t be in a hurry. You, your layout and us, your adoring fans, will all be here tomorrow. For scratchbuilding, all you really need is time. So, take it.
For me the issue for me is not whether of not to scratchbuild or buy a kit (which I prefer to RTR), it’s that the types of structures I want don’t exist as kit. So if I want the Union Lumber Company Mill on my layout I have to build it. End of story.
There plenty of scratchy building kits available, Hit the Walthers catalogue.
The only way your going to get something built the way you need it is that YOU build it.
The early days of the hobby you were more had to be a craftsman but there was plenty of RTR out then anyways like today.
I just put together an MDC HOn3 2-8-0 kit, still in the works but runs great!
Just detailing out and couplers.
Remember a few months back someone started a virtual scratch building competition to build a structure from a Coke can and an index card or some such thing. I did not enter, feeling somewhat inadiquate in my skills, but was facinated by the results (and some of the humor expressed!) would this be a good time to have a Summer challenge and have a similar type of thread? It might encourage a few others to have a shot at scratch building something.
