Security!

Trains Magazine General Discussion
1

A basic question that no one familiar with railroad practices seems to have mentioned:

Does the turnover rate for hiring employees on the Class 1’s create a security risk?

With the turnover of new employees at UP approaching 30%-- as some insiders have said-- driving away the loyalty of good employees means that the ones left over either can’t or don’t want to leave.

There are several reasons, but I think the biggest one is time vested and lack of transferable job skills. Because most T & E are treated as if they have no brains by management, and are worked to the point of exhaustion, there is no reason to expect that employees will be able to readily prevent those who were once in their ranks from using that field knowledge detrimentally.

Without going into great detail, there are unfortunately many ways that people could cause problems, by knowing a few simple bits of information. It worries me as a former railroader, that people could easily infiltrate the railroad employment structures because there is no redundancy built in for the human factor.

A minimum number of people are watching the railroad infrastructure due to reduced crew size (unlike highways), and while efficiency isn’t a bad thing, the deficiency of over-capacity and underutilization of human resources is leading to a national security crisis.

Punishing existing employees with testing designed to fail, or an abusive lack of people-skills, is not the way to maintain confidence. Fortunately, most railroaders are dedicated to their craft.

But the equivalent of hiring and overworking temps due to traffic fluctuations, is a recipe for disaster. Defense against terrorism depends on a vigorous economy. This economy has increasingly relied upon railroads to alleviate highway constraints.

If the railroads are not prepared for humane growth, then they are not prepared at all.

What are your thoughts, fellow forum members?

2

While I don’t think all of the labor-management relationships at railroads are all that great, implying that railroad employees don’t have concern for the security of their country or even of their railroad is a poor argument at best. Also, your argument that a small group of people is more easily infiltrated flies in the face of logic. Last time I checked most railroads require a good deal of training these days, both classroom and on the job and I don’t know about you, but there are darn few people I work with I don’t know and have history with. Even in the event I don’t know someone, it’s a sure thing that one of my close friends does. Sounds like another half baked paranoid idea to me and there are plenty of those around already.

LC

3

UP’s turnover rate is retirement related. Generally, once a person hires out, he stays. I hired out with the SP in 1963 for summer only telegrapher job and stayed for nearly 30 years until my job was sold to a short line.

4

You want to talk about a security risk? Talk about the 200% turnover the Nuclear Security industry is seeing. these people know the ins and outs of defending nuclear plants and they stay for a few months then leave.

5

First of all, while some may consider it paranoid to question what people do with the knowledge they learn on the RR, it is a well-known fact that railroad keys, equipment, etc. are available for a price.

I had my switch keys stolen from my car after 9/11: included were a Conrail divsionwide key and an old PRR key that could be used to get into switch cabinets. It is certain that these have been fenced through the usual underground of collectors.

Second, I never said that railroaders were not interested in protecting security. In fact, we have seen all sorts of things happen, so everything is CYA and the grapevine travels faster than official circles when it comes to protecting one’s job. Everyone is already constantly on edge, but that doesn’t necessarily prevent problems. The rumors that Conrail was to be sold off to NS began several years before the final sale.

The fact that everyone is spread too thin is also not something that is an uncommon refrain. We know this. Stories abound, and even if some are not true, the fact that other railroaders tend to believe their own stories is indication that it is too easy to expect the worst. Many times these fears are not unfounded.

So I take offense when it is implied that I am being paranoid, as if this is solely a problem of my imagination. That is obviously an absurd statement in the face of crew room BS. Kind of the pot calling the kettle black don’t you think? Yeah, nobody could imagine that people would fly planes into buildings either. Inconceivable paranoia, I guess. The problem is, if it is conceivable, it may very well be considered by a terrorist.

And it is true that turnover is more fluid than people would like to admit. When I was qualifying, the rumors also flew about high dropout rates of new hires in the class ahead of us (50%). The two-tier pay scale was still in place, and it tended to demoralize people when the union was split between newbies and old heads. I believe the

6

Lets be clear. I didn’t imply you were being paranoid, I said so and I stand by that statement.

Anything is available for a price. How do you think so many terrorists penetrate places?!
People on the inside helped them, they bought fake ID, made copies of keys or bribed people. Look at the Saudi kidnappings, the terrorists drove actual police cars and wore real police uniforms. They got them from sympathizers already in the police service. If somebody wants to blow up a train, they are gonna do it. Pure and simple. Why bother to have “imbedded” terrorists on the train crew? Terrorists plan simple plans. For 9/11 it was necessary for the terrorists to have rudimentary flying skills to aim their missles. No such skills are needed to wreck a train or use a train in mayhem. Look at Madrid. All that took was leaving a bit of unattended luggage on trains in a busy terminal. They didn’t try to sabotage the trains or interlockings, that would be too difficult and likely require more work and planning and a much higher likelihood of being caught. The best security for that in the way of background checks is already done by RRs. I still have my old CR photo ID, and I look for that to make a comeback together with other metrics (at least a thumbprint) when new IDs come out.

So why dwell on it. The average freight railroad employee will never see a terrorist. Why? Because that isn’t where the action is. Look to the large gatherings of people for targets. Most railroads don’t even come close. In the areas they do, security is enhanced. Ever taken a stack train to NJCT? When we did it the cops followed our train in groups of at least 4. I haven’t been that way in a while but I doubt that has changed. Cops ride commuter trains now, like never before.

None of this justifies a lack of security or watchfulness, but I find it insulting that you could suggest that I should now be watching my fellow employees to insure they aren’t going to blow something up. In any event, everyone is alrea

7

No, you didn’t say so:

You said, “Sounds like another half baked paranoid idea to me and there are plenty of those around already.” It’s hard to say that without implying a personal attack.

If you are so insulted by the idea that you should be careful around fellow employees-- by virtue of the fact that certain employees have either weaknesses for bad behavior or intentional malice-- then explain to me the time I saw an old head come to work drunk (and nobody said a thing because the guy was having personal problems), or the time I heard the story about a railroader flipping out and murdering his wife.

Would you disregard long hours as a factor in behavior? I’m sure that attitude and fatigue (as well as long hours) contribute to divorce in the industry. The fact that people have personal weaknesses is of course no reason to malign their worth. But the fact that people can be manipulated regardless of their upstanding behavior as an employee is certainly obvious.

It is possible to draw the conclusion that I would expect you to be suspicious of your fellow employees. That was not my intention. I pointed out that terrorism as a numerically-assessed risk should probably be no more common than any other risk: “. . . the risk of embedded terrorists increases, just as the risk of ordinary injury would increase. This issue should be a statistical factor in any RR’s business plan.”

Embedding a terrorist for information-gathering would obviously be less-noticeable than if someone was embedded to create havoc. Lord knows, management is good enough at creating havoc already. I do not know whether or not specific data stands out showing railroads at a greater risk. All I am suggesting is for people to think the unthinkable in a way that insurance companies have been forced to do-- by considering risks based upon available information.

And what is available information? Plenty, to anyone. I am not suggesting, however, that the increasing

8

You are making these issues far more complex than they are. Most terrorist plots are simple, just as are most good military operations. Perhaps you weren’t in the military and didn’t get the acronym K.I.S.S.= Keep It Simple, Stupid. Why not just blow up the tracks with a relatively small explosive device? All the complex effort to create and/or obtain radio control equipment to shunt a signal circuit? That is making a lot of work for yourself. Again, it also increases the risk of detection.

Seeing other employees drunk or otherwise having issues (an engineer I once knew is currently serving 15 to life in Attica for running down his girlfriend and another person with his car while intoxicated) is not a security issue. It is a safety issue that should be addressed.

Your idea that the terrorists are coming to the rails to hire out as my next trainee still sound a lot like “the sky is falling”.

LC

9

Perhaps so. But then again, I don’t know. I 'm not the crazy one who would try to find ways to infiltrate a railroad in order to destroy it. This was just to raise the idea. It could be a bad Stephen Seagal movie, and maybe I shouldn’t have mentioned it, except a lot of things don’t get mentioned until it’s too late. With the public misunderstanding of the railroad industry in general, it wouldn’t be too hard to spread panic if something did happen.

There are guys that sit around in the Pentagon thinking up situations like these. It’s more difficult to get explosives than a device that can be adapted to interfere with signalling. Collisions are more dangerous and more common than some goofball with explosives. The ability to cause simultaneous failures in populated areas would be signficant.

As far as as personal issues go, my point was lack of judgment and the pressures of one’s personal life (as it affects work and vice-versa), leading a person to either distrust those who are new (you know the sideways glances that everyone gets when you’re new, until they figure out if you’re on the side of the crew or a fresh-faced brainwash case?), or to place unwarranted trust in someone or a situation that becomes deadly. Like the guys that go 40 years without incident , and then fall under the wheels.

When problems affect work behavior, it can also potentially affect security. How about the disgruntled worker who entered the Amtrak repair facility (was it in in Delaware ro Beech Grove?) to shoot up the place. Combine a disgruntled railroad-version of TIm McVey and you’ve got yourself a pileup.

Anyway, in order not to belabor the point, that’s all I’ve got to say. Everyone else has been rather quiet, due to the freakishness of the topic I suppose? Shoulda just kept my mouth shut.

Now, will I be the one that people carefully edge away from on this forum? I hope not. Rational people can think of extremes for better or worse, and ultimately I a

10

Didn’t kick in 'cause I agree with LC. In my line of work I see more security in a week than most folks do in years. Yet I see many ways that security can be circumvented, and you don’t need an ID to do it. We can’t protect everything, so we protect what we perceive to be our weak spots. You don’t need a key to remove a switch lock.

11

I don’t work in the industry, but I’m curious: are there RR hiring restrictions to prevent hiring felons or others who have done time? The reason I ask…a radio news item I heard today regarding al-Qaida recruiting non-Arab US citizens, possibly disgruntled workers who have spent time in prison.

With 30% turnover one wonders if they have time to run background checks.

12

Yeah, like any other sensitive job they do a background check although they always say on the form that a person’s prior convictions do not bar employment. Fortunately, I have never had this problem and I never will.

They make you list every single part of your job history, and if there’s gaps they will ask. Unfortunately, this fails to account for some regionals and shortlines which use trackage rights on Class 1’s, but may have a less-extensive background checking capability.

I don’t know if they can check everyone. I would hesitate to say, in any case.

13

Like any background check, it is possible to have someone slip through. Federal regulations require that all Engineers and people required to accept promotion to engineer provide a release of their driving records to the RR. In addition, all railroads require disclosure of prior criminal convictions. RR police who often handle background checks are police officers and have the ability to check all databases available to police.

In short while it is always possible someone slips through or becomes a criminal after they join the RR (see above), the background checks are generally effective.

LC

14

While this presents a interesting question, in reality, there is no need for any organization to infilltrate any railroad by creating a fifth colum inside the railroad itself.

Any pesron possessing the basic common sense needed to could garner the required info to wreck havoc from this forum, and just about every railfan magazine published in the last 15 years.

For that matter, the info is available at the public libary.

Just a few days observation from a secluded vantage point would give anyone bent on causing maximum damage the necessary info needed.

Dont think so?

Well, two kids with a bolt cutter managed to dump a Amtrak into a sideing at 60mph.

They just watched the same train a few days, discovered that once past a certain point, there were no signals between the last one and the sideing.

They waited till they knew the train was by the signal, cut the switch lock, threw the switch, and put on their boogie shoes.

Derailed both engines, and most of the cars.

Want to derail a train?
Four old spikes and a curve.

Note the 9/11 hijackers didnt work for any airline, only took enough classes to learn the basics of how to handle the craft to accompli***heir task.

When I was a kid, we looked up the formula for black powder in the encyclopedia.

All the necessary info is here already, its free, accesible on the net or in the library.
For under $300.00, you can by a really nice scanner, listen, and plan.

There is no need to go through the process of infiltrating a railroad.

As for the drunk old head?
Well, if a new guy showed up drunk, or acting squirrely, trust me, he wont be working there the next day.

Old head we all know, he might get a afternoon in the back of somebodys pick up, sleeping it off, but he only gets the one freebie, next time, he gets turned also.

We are such a closed society that

15

Sounds paranoid to me-

You know how many engineers and Conductors Died while serving the Railway back in-the-day?

I’m talking about old age- not because they fell off.

That must of sucked, dying on the train.

Checking tickets- you take a moment to rest, and you never see the end of the ride?

You’ll have to accept that poeple also don’t like this concept and retire before there time is up.

I plan to- i imagine many people plan to aswell-

Don’t get your blood pressure up and worry about things like that, it’s pointless, and you’ll jsut end up hurting yourself over the issue- or end up with stomach ulcers because you’re worrying to much

-and yes i know what that is like.

so my best advice- don’t worry- don’t panic, we’re not all crooks in this world.

16

Well said by everyone.

While it’s a possibility, I concede the insider probability is somewhat low, compared to other things. I realized how horribly easy stuff like that still is, even post 9/11. We know it doesn’t take much.

But if this stuff is so easy, I wonder why terrorist activities haven’t resurfaced sooner? I guess we can thank the Feds, although as I said, heavy-handed enforcement isn’t helpful and borders on constitutional abuse.

Part of the problem I have seen is how employees are treated by the company. I think it is possible to show a basic link between corporate behavior and employees who are being distracted from their jobs by militant management practices.

I just think the vulnerabilities aren’t always where people think they are, and we can’t protect everything. Sooner or later it comes down to an issue of trust, knowing that you don’t have to worry about dealing with the dangers of your job because you fear management retribution.

The bare fact that these practices can exhibit a supreme form of paranoia is important because it demonstrates how-- in their rigor to protect all bases-- it creates bad management which simultaneously alienates good people.

I remember working a yard where we saw some kids with a gun (it was a BB gun, or so we thought). Nobody reported it because we had other things to do, and the conductor felt it wasn’t worth stirring up trouble.

Security weaknesses from the inside can be traced to attitudes toward employees. The typical war between management and labor is counterproductive to the point of distraction, even to the point of not reporting possible problems due to the friction it would cause with management.

I think this friction can be taken advantage of by people with bad motives, regardless of how that occurs-- even if it has to be from an outside vantage point via the unstable turnover of employees and the subsequent “churning” of up-to-date information.

17

ANyone ever think the terrorist situation isn’t nearly as bad as Chicken Little has made it out to be? Nothing in the world has really changed because of 9/11. Only our perception has changed.

There are terrorists that would like to bring down the U.S. now, and there were terrorists before 9/11. That day didn’t change or create anything, it only showed us what was already there.

There will be another atttack. No matter what we do, no matter how strict we make our rules, there will be another attack some time. You can’t protect everything, and like water running down a mountain, terrorists will take the path of least resistance. They’ll do what is easy and what they know they can accomplish. But it will never stop. It’s always been there and it will always be there. 9/11 didn’t change that.

18

Dave- I agree that the situation has not changed, I recall reading an article in Penthouse-yes, I did read an article now and then- in the early 70’s about the possibility of a LPG ship being detonated in NYC harbor, with the effect of a small atom bomb. But I disagree with the statement about the situation not being as bad as it’s made out to be, the memory of 3 buildings being hit by US airliners and the crater in the Pa field where some brave folk sacrificed their lives make me think the situation is indeed bad. But I do agree that the paranoia level has been taken to a whole new level with no good results.
And goboard- The best defense against crime of all types, including terrorism is the local cop. McVey was arrested by an Oklahoma troop, and Atta would have been by a Mass. officer if the feds had spread the info they were in possession of around a bit.They do not share well.
And as I said in a MR forum about grafitti, if a local kid can spend half an hour painting a covered hopper without being interupted, how hard would it be to plant a bomb?

19

why would someone bother with terrorism by freight train? why go through all that trouble?

you can get a commercial drivers license without ever taking a test, or go through a background check, get you an 18 wheeler and load it up Oklahoma City style, or hijack a LPG tanker and cause much more destruction without any of the trouble. I have been a truck driver for 5 years now and i know how easy it is, and so do the terrorists. they are probibly already out there on the highways. and if you want to talk about unhappy employees and high turnover rates, most of the large trucking companies have a turnover rate somewhere between 80 and 110 percent. and remember the guy that drove his truck into the state capital building in Sacramento California?

there are disgruntled workers in every profession. and yes, it is a damn good idea that we all pay attention and do anything we can to increase security. you bring up some good points Goboard, but i think you may be overreacting a bit. there are many more jobs out there with many more upset workers than the railroads. just think how easy it would be for one of the many disgruntled postal workers to slip a bomb or more anthrax into the system without ever being detected. if you think there is security at the postal sorting centers, you are wrong. i know several truck drivers that deliver mail to the big postal centers and they never get checked out and they are allowed to wander freely.

security is all smoke and mirrors at many places. if you have the desire and a little knowledge, a terrorist act would be easy to get away with in this country.

but thats just my opinion.

20

And don’t forget that those in charge of fighting terrorism aren’t about to tip their hand and tell us (and the terrorists) how many plots they may have thwarted already. Assuming we’ve learned their lessons, we are closely watching, and may even be inside suspected terrorist organizations.

The best defense against terrorism is eyes - yours, mine, everybodies. Just so it doesn’t roll over into paranoia.