seeking basic info on wiring O27 standard switches

Classic Toy Trains Forum
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QUOTE from original post in wrong forum:

Hi,
SO I’m just starting out with my inherited set of Lionels. I have put together a track that is pretty cool and uses two switches in a “bone” configuration (loops at each end with a single peice of track connecting).

I am noticing that the switches are humming loudly and I’m pretty sure I did something wrong! (the train is going though.)

Also, I remember that not ALL the connectors between tracks are supposed to be metal when connecting the switches. How does this work? I have no reference info whatsoever.

And another thing: there are wiring posts on my switches… is it possible to hook the switches up to automatically switch when the train is approaching from a given direction? …Without getting too elaborate?

Thanks!
newbie

1st reply from BR60103

very quickly: I think the rails from the frog (the short ones) are used to run the non-derailing feature. However, they have to be insulated from the rest of the track with a plastic pin (Lionel calls them FIBER PINS). The hum is because the switch is constantly trying to turn both directions at once.

Take all the rails off of the end of the switches. mow turn the track power on and use a short piece of wire to touch the outer rails at the end of the switches. This should cause the switch to change. Now you have to put the insulated pins in those rails.

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(my response to BR60103 - anyone else with information please feel free to comment…)

Thanks BR60103!

Questions: Please confirm, the frog is a short switch?

What exactly is the non derailing feature? (aside from something that prevents derailing?)
See, I have switch controls, but with the “dogbone” setup that I have, I theoretically don’t need to ever manually switch it- as long as the switches can know to switch when a train is coming towards one of the “combining” ends it can electrically detect which one. Is that how it was designed to work?

I didn’t get what you meant by your 2nd paragraph. For one, do you mean putting the fiber pins on all three of one of the combining end’s rails? Also: on any given piece of track, what rail is what? I guess since this is AC something is a ground and something is hot? which is what and how does that affect the switching?

I will keep looking in this forum for further info on lionel switches… thank you!

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As a general rule you can consider the center rail hot and the two outer rails ground.If your turnouts are made of brown plastic you insulate the two inside converging rails that form a vee.If your turnouts are black it may have to be the outside rails.(Only some black ones are wired like this depending on the age.) I can dig out a set of instructions for the brown ones if you need it.

Ed

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#9: I used to have 36 of the ‘brown’ O27 switches.

I’m assuming they are the Lionel ones?

As mentioned above, you have to insert a ‘dummy pin’ (a plastic pin) in 2 of the rails. On the part of the switch that curves, the rail that needs the pin is the one closest to the part that goes straight. On the track that goes straight, the rail that needs the pin is the one closest to the part that curves. It’s my belief that you must have them in place already. As I recall, if you use metal pins in all 3 rails the switch freaks out and ‘chatters’, meaning it continually swings from straight to curved to straight, etc.

“Non Derailing” means that when a train is coming ‘into’ the switch (picture entering from the top of a ‘Y’) and the switch is in the wrong position (the part that swings back and forth is turned the wrong way), when the front engine wheels hit the switch rails the switch swings in the engine’s direction to prevent the train from derailing. I think you must have seen this happen since you’ve been running trains.

The humming that you hear when trains are running over them is inherent with the Lionel O27 switches. There are no advanced electronics it them so every engine, every car, every caboose that runs over the switch forces the switch to try to swing to the proper position, even though it’s already swung in that direction. Better switches ‘know’ that the moving part is already in the proper position and they don’t try to continually get it there.

This was harder to explain that I thought!!! It’s a terminology issue.

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Engine#9,

Welcome, and a few random thoughts:

Because this is a difficult subject, a picture would be worth a thousand words and a model number a million. Lionel has produced many switches (some say “turnouts”) over the years, and made many modifications to them. Would you post a model number on the switches? Even the number of the set from which they came, or the locomotive number might help if you have them.

What we need to do is to all get on the same page – literally. If you don’t have one, I would recommend that you buy the “Complete Service Manual for Lionel Trains, by K-line,” later published by Greenberg. It will be the best $20 bucks you ever spend if you want to operate (and inevitably repair) Lionel trains of post-war (WWII) vintage.

In the interim, you need to know that the Service Manual, more or less complete, with illustrations and “exploded” diagrams, is usually available on-line (at no charge) from the “Library” at Olsen’s Toy Trains.

www.olsenstoy.com/

Unfortunately, the site is “down” as I write this. (If you use this resource, and ever need parts, you might consider supporting this service by buying parts from them…)

From my copy of the “Complete Service Manual” 1982 Edition, page 606, pertaining to the “O27” remote control switches model 1122 (which may or may not be what you have): if the “switch coil buzzes continuously…the swivel rails may ‘creep’ or even snap over particularly when track voltage is high, or is suddenly applied, as in reversing a locomotive.”

"Reason: lamp in controller, " (emphasis mine) “which is wired in series with one of the switch coils, is transmitting too much current.”

“Correction: replace lamp [bulb] 315-20 (G.E. 431) with either 18-volt lamp 2026-58 (G.E. 1445) or preferably with the low-current lamp G.E. 53.”

(Note: the 1445 and 53 lamps are read

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Hi #9. The frog is the contraption where the two running rails cross. Probably a plastic item on your switch.

The only insulating pins need to go on the two rails (straight and curved) coming out of the frog. When the wheels hit these it causes the switch to set for that direction, making it non-derailing.

The terminals connect to the switch controller. However, you can run your layout without the controller. You can do other fancy tricks with them.

If you don’t have an insulating pin, you can sometimes make a temporary substitute with a round toothpick cut down. You could test by removing any metal pin and leaving a gap, but it does need something to keep the rails from touching.

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I’ve never seen a plastic frog.

A toothpick will keep the rails in alignment but won’t prevent contact. Screwing the track to the table and soldering the other rails together as I do is enough to maintain the appropriate gap; so I use neither plastic nor metal pins.

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Thanks all for the great advice. I will be able to look into this further from here… especially that library at Olsen.

cheers,
#9