Photographing the Folkston Funnel (got enough "f’ sounds there?) has given me a taste for learning more about the pre-merger ACL and SAL; or the (I believe) four-year period of merged SCL passenger service prior to Amtrak.
I’m terribly confused as to what the premerger trains where and where their routes were, especially (Tampa) Miami-Washington (New York). I do know that ACL was the dominant partner of the two, but I’d like more detail about routes and runs. I also believe that the ACL varnish on that route was styled “Champion” while the SCL was “Silver.” Of course, that doesn’t mean today that Amtrak’s Silver Star and Silver Meteor have to follow original SAL routes; in fact, I’ve been told a lot of SAL main in S. Georgia/N. Florida has been ripped up or purchased by short lines.
I could use your collective wisdom to decide which is the best for me: shop for ACL and SAL passenger timetables in about 1965-66; OR shop for an early combined SCL timetable from 1967 (correct me if I’m wrong, please); OR try for a decent OGR ca. 1965.
Leaving aside railfan shows, are the individuals who sell old timetables fairly accurate as to their condition? And I’m guessing what I need would cost upwards of ten dollars, perhaps much upwards. So cost is something of an object.
Also if you’re aware of any good comprehensive history of ACL or ACL/SAL, I can try the used-book online services. The MBI series, of which I’ve read many, seems to have no separate entry for SAL, ACL or SCL – just “CSX” in general. Pity. The more useful a book to the interested beginner (me), the more I’d be willing to pay, esp. if in good condition.
I haven’t posted at this particular site very much before now, but one of my Xmas presents was a subscription to CLASSIC TRAINS, so I imagine I’ll be hanging
Not on eBay. If I were trying to sell a 1965 Guide on eBay I’d consider myself lucky to get $5 for it (plus shipping).
Search for “official guide” under “Paper” under “Railroadiana” under “Transportation” under “Collectibles” and you’ll soon find one. Or several.
Maybe you can get cheap copies of the reprints of the SAL and ACL histories by Richard Prince. The Indiana University reprints from around 2000 have inferior photo reproduction, so don’t spend a fortune on them.
Also, An interesting story here on Classic Trains about an incident on the ACL East Coast Champion. I didn’t realize that the ACL was operating it’s passenger trains at 100mph.
And unless ACL and Santa Fe (and maybe others) had head-end power equipped with cab signalling, that was against a specific speed limit of 79 mph enforceable by federal gov’t (ICC I think, not sure).
However, if the tracks were good enough, the head-end crew seasoned enough, then apparently the Feds weren’t out to make trouble: it is also widely conceded that the Super Chief could cruise at 90 mph and make up lost time at 100 mph on some stretches, especially out West. I myself wonder about the (1950s-60s) IC; given a 79 mph speed limit, the varnish oftened averaged 60 mph or more yet made numerous stops. How then?
And I also thank you very much for the pertinent and interesting info! - a. s.
If my memory serves me correctly the Santa Fe, IC, CB&Q, Milw and some others all had ATS (Automatic Train Stop) and the lead unit in all cases had to be equipped with it. This permitted passenger train speeds of 100 mph over certain track while those passenger trains not so equipped were only permitted 79 mph. Not all track on a given railroad was ATS equipped.
Look at whats happening today with the track improvements and welded rail permitting many freight trains 70 mph speed limits. I am sure I have ridden the Southwest Chief making up time on certain former Santa Fe districts where the speed has been in excess of 90 mph. I know that the Surfliners are permitted 90 mph running on some sections between Los Angeles and San Diego. North of Los Angeles the fastest running is 79 mph. Hope this helps.
By the way there is an excellent book on the ACL and SAL trains put out by there Historical Society and during WWII it mentions the Champions operating at 100 mph and also one very serious accident involving Champions at high speed. I have the book in my collection but can’t recall the name just now. I moved about a year ago and just put the books on the shelves and have to organize them soon but the wife has had me doing all of the little things to keep wedded bliss that makes her happy, soon I shall spend a couple of days reorganizing the books.
ACL, SFe and IC were all legal 100 mph railroads at various times. ACL only kept it in the timetable for a couple years, SFe dropped to 90 around 1959, but IC was still 100 until … Amtrak, maybe?
The premier trains in the Florida - New York service were the ACL’s East Coast and West Coast Champions, both coach and sleeper all-lighweight streamliners. During heavy traffic periods, the West Coach Champion occasionally had borrowed sleepers, a tuscan red PRR sleeper on a few occasions, or occasionally and western railroad, more typicallyi UP. The East Coast Champion was kept all stainless, with matched PRR, RF&P, mostly ACL, and FEC equipment, until the 1959 FEC strike, when the ACL began serving Miami directly via trackage rights over the SAL from Auburndale, and it was possible to travel to Orlando on both the West Coast and East Coast Champions. The FEC equipment was mostly sold to the SAL, who used it to retire lots of the remaing heavyweights. Also in the winter, there was the all-Pullman (up to around the ACL-SAL merger, when coaches were added) Florida Special. Except for the diners, usually two, and the lounge car, this was mostly borrowed equpment, UP predominating, but MP, TP, and SP also showing up. Secondary NY - Florida trains were the Gulf Coast Special, which was the renamed Havana Special, and the Everglades, which was the Jacksonville-Washington local, with a Jacksonville - Richmond sleeper that was cut back to Jacksonville - Florence before being cut completely. The Gulf Coast Special had through sleepers to Wilmington via a connecting train with coaches from Wilson, NC, and through sleepers to Atlanta, via a connecting train at Florence to Waycross? Athens? and then the Georgia Railroad to Atlanta. The ACL had a practice of using only lightwieght equipment on its premier trains, except for some very heavily rebuilt lounge and dining cars, which were purple, arch roofs only slightly higher than the Budd equipment - but six wheel trucks. As off-peak travel decresed in later years with the beginning of jet competition, the East and Coast and West Coast Champions were co
Started organizing my books once again and the book I mentioned is titled By Streamliner New York to Florida. Maybe available through the ACL/SAL Historical society. It is a really excellent book well worth adding to any collection.
Dear timz, Redwards, passengerfan, and daveklepper; (also to all SAL/ACL/SCL etc. Passenger Fans reading this),
Thank you all for your invaluable recommendations – every one of you added significantly to my fledgling research on Seaboard, ACL, and the merged SCL’s passenger service. Internet or not, I simply would not have gotten such a good healthy place to push off from without your help – not even in Chicago, because other than a CSX connection there isn’t much hardcopy available up here.
In hopes of helping any other interested fans, here’s what I’ve accomplished up to now: I definitely am going to contact IU press because they might have Richard Prince’s SEABOARD AIR LINE RAILWAY: STEAM BOATS, LOCOMOTIVES AND HISTORY and his ATLANTIC COAST LINE RAILROAD: STEAM BOATS, LOCOMOTIVES AND HISTORY at a good price. As you told me, both books were published in 2000 by Indiana University Press (Bloomington); and they are worth a pretty penny used! [Online research unveiled one other widely available Prince RR history, published in 2001, NASHVILLE, CHATTANOOGA & ST. LOUIS RAILWAY, but just as you told me it too is pricey. Being not my meat, I don’t plan to read it now.]
My best friend has promised to teach me the strategy and tactics of bidding for e-Bay material. I hope to score an old OGR soon, preferably from the late fifties. Searching abebook, alibris and amazon, I knew all the history-oriented books I was looking for would only be available used. I ordered (thru one selling agent), three books from three different used-book services (names upon request):
Seaboard Coastline in Florida by Warren, Bob; Clark, Fred;
By Streamliner from Ny to Fl: New York to Florida by Welsh, Joseph; and
Atlantic Coast Line Passenger Service: The Postwar Years by Goolsby, Larry.
The Indiana Univ books are reprints- the originals date from the 1960s or maybe early 1970s. And no, the reprints aren’t worth a pretty penny used, even if somebody is trying to charge a pretty penny. Give me $20 plus shipping and I’ll be delighted to sell you my copy of the SAL reprint (now that I’ve gotten an original).
Prince books focus on the RR and its steam locomotives-- he may not include that much on the diesel trains. His SAL book includes nothing on their diesels-- or on the Silver Meteor/Star/Comet.
Prince also did books on L&N, SR, RF&P, CofG I think and maybe A&WP or some such thing, and maybe the original NS. Dunno how many got reprinted.
There’s no strategy involved in getting a 1950s Official Guide on eBay. They’re plentiful, unless you’re hoping to get one for 99 cents. Looks like this one is going begging (maybe because its condition is suspect)
By the way, that June 1941 that’s being auctioned now is doubtless the reprint-- which means better paper than the original, but if you insist on originals …