I have this Shinohara curved turnout that I bought ~15 years ago that would do wonders for my track plan. Trouble is, I had to stop using it [back then] because it kept short-circuiting and there was no obvious solution (I’m not an E.E.). I wired my old layout using the Kalmback wiring book, and all of my Atlas turnouts worked fine.
What do I need to do to prevent this thing from shorting? Or have the modern Shinohara turnouts been redesigned to eliminate this defect?
check the points for contacts touching, maybe not pulling all the way over.
More than likely you may find yourself cutting gaps near the frog to isolate the rails.
You’re probably right…except I was hoping there would be a solution that didn’t involve cutting the turnout itself.
One thing I noticed is that there is a solid metal bar between the two movable rail pieces, which are soldered to it. I’m sure if it was made of some other non-conductive material this wouldn’t be an issue. If I cut it, I’ll probably throw the tracks out of guage.
If frog gaps will solve the problem, then just add insulated rail joiners to the end of the rails that come from the frog. They accompli***he same thing as cut frog gaps, just farther out from the turnout.
I have some older non-DCC Shin turnouts that need converting - I know what you mean about the all conductive point bar. There are some websites that have some well illustrated procedures for converting turnouts for DCC.
I was thinking about drilling two holes on each side of the point bar rivet, riveting the bar in the two new locations then cutting out the middle rivet and portion of the bar. Frog gaps would be needed too - but these were already mentioned
Or you could wait in line for some new Shin turnouts. Problem is that the wings keep snapping off the delivery pigs. Once the pigs fly they’ll be able to get out from under all the back orders.
Good luck.
-slim
I have Shinohara Yard Points (N scale) on hand and it is easy to see that they are shorted by design.However,the conductive throwbar will not cause any malfunction other than with badly out of gauge wheelsets.The frogs are the problem as they aren’t insulated.Two possible ways to cure this…the installation of insulated joiners at both branches of the frog will correct this but with quite long “dead spots”.The method I want to use is to cut gaps closest possible to the frog points so that the dead spots are reduced to a minimum and use conductive joiners.
Thanx everybody for the advice so far. Looks like what I need to do is figure a way to insulate the frogs.
~~ Later edit: ~~
Here are some photos to make it understandable.
I applied a connectivity test and discovered that the two center rails (B and C) are short-circuited. What I am planning to do is cut gaps in four places to isolate the problem rails (see below):
…but will the short reappear when the front truck of a locomotive goes on the isolated area while the rear truck is on the live rails? I don’t want to do any cutting until I get a second opinion [or 3rd, 4th, … ]
From what I understand when you have live frog turnouts, insulate as you have indicated or at the ends of the turnout. Then feed the whole frog from a switch ( a tortise motor has one built in) , which supplies the appropriate polarity depending on the route taken.
Ken.
Ken,
What you have is a power routing turnout. In other words, the switch is designed so that if you throw the points to one side or the other, the rails you have highlighted in red will pick up the current from the rail that the points are touching.
The way the points appear to be thrown, tracks A, B, and C will have the same polarity ( and here’s where it gets fun!) when the power is fed from the points end of the switch.
If power is fed from the frog end of the switch, (for example A and B) you will get a dead short. Same thing happens if you feed power from C and D.
If you feed power from A and D, it’s the same as attaching the wires at the points end of the switch. If you are using DC and you have another switch facing this switch (i.e., a passing siding arrangement) you would need insulated rail joiners somewhere along the C and the B rail to prevent a short circuit.
All of the above holds true for DC. Others will have to guide you if you plan to use DCC. I can spell DCC but that’s as much as I know about it.
I hope this helps.
Tom
Looking at the picture,I see that both parts (R+L) of both C and B rails are visually separated so the only way these could be short circuited on their whole lengths would be via under turnout jumpers.So if you cut the gap you showed on the left,next to the frog points (V-shaped),you stand a good chance that your conductivity test will show that the short circuit has disappeared entirely,thus not requiring the other cut on right.
The Shinohara turnouts I have don’t have any underside jumpers so the right hand portion of your B and C tracks are fed current through the moving rails,which may not be too reliable.So installing jumpers to join your B and C tracks repectively may be necessary (or recommended) to jump across the gaps at the frogs.You should then have a nice working turnout without any polarity reversing switch,like Peco Insulfrog turnouts.With this method,you do use conductive rail joiners.
The other solution,more complicated,is using insulated rail joiners and feeding the turnout frog through a polarity reversing device.Purists will tell you that it ensures complete turnout reliability by having all rails fed,including the frog,but this is beneficial to only a few locos if any.I’ve used both Electrofrog and Insulfrog turnouts so far and never had any problem with any of them.
Ken,
If you gap as shown, the loco will not short as you described. Unless you have short wheel based steamers or old steam, you should be ok leaving the dead frog. The power routing part of the turnout can be unreliable (points), fixing that will require re-soldering the points to a PC throwbar with a insulating gap cut in the copper and putting jumpers from the stock rails to the point rails to power them. See Alan Gartners’ wiring for DCC site or Joe Fugates’ DCC thread to learn more about power routing switch wiring and modifications.
Thanks again everyone! [:)]
Looks like I can gap the rails as planned, although I may need to solder on a jumper or two. I do not intend to use it as a power-routing turnout since I don’t want to depend solely on the moving rail sections to transmit power. The dead frog area will not be a problem since I have no intention of running short-wheelbase locos on here [as Guy was describing].
KEN: Railfan is right on. You have a ‘Power Routing’ turnout. Out of the box they don’t short unless you do something wrong.
1. feed power from the inside (frog) rails.
2.have a metal wheel touching touching the unused point rail.
3.using with DCC.
You didn’t mention you were using DCC. If so, isolate the frog by gapping, as diagrammed. Shinohara is in the process of changing to isolated frog’s for DCC. which mean’s the are ‘dead’ unless separately wired. I recommend wiring all frog’s thrue separate contact’s on the switch machine, whether DC or DCC, for reliability.
ONE of these thing’s will correct your problem.
Well…actually…I did do something wrong![:I] 15 yrs ago, this was my only non-Atlas turnout, and I knew enough about wiring to be dangerous. I noticed that the movable rails didn’t always make good contact, so in my “brilliance” I figured I would solder a jumper wire to the movable rail. You can guess what happened from there…
I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now…![(-D]
Ken,
The simplest way to fix the problem is to put insulating rail joiners at “B” and “C”. You will then rely on the power to the “red” section to be routed through the point of the rail touching the stock rail, how the turnout was originally designed and intended to function but not reliable long-term. If you cut gaps as shown in your second picture, you may still have a problem on the point side of the frog if you connect track feeders to the individual rails coming from the points. The two point rails are electrically connected (notice the brass “wiper” underneath the point rails on the throw bar that wipes the underside of the stock rails) and could continue to short. Again, the easiest fix is to gap the rails at “B” and “C”. To insure good electrical conductivity, drop a track feeder from the frog to the center contact of a SPDT connected to a switch machine or ground throw and connect the outside leads to the corresponding rails / power bus. No more problems (unless your wheels are out of gauge!).
Mark C.
Well this is the way I was told to do it
Gap the ends A-D all the same end. Use metal joiners on the other end. If you have turnouts in a line you will have to run jumpers to rails A and D to the bus wires. I have had no issues other than wheelsets out of guage.
The guy that told me to do this is an ME and specializes in electrical engineering. Personally I think the wiring for DCC site has some helpful info but some of the turnout wiring is a bit overkill might as well handlay your turnouts.