Hi guys,
I am having problems with a short? on the double crossover. No problem when going stright, but only when the train tries the crossover. I have installed a hex frog juicer as I thought that was the problem. Also, when I manually move the switches, the track goes dead for a moment and then the DCC programer restarts. Is there a connnection between these two problems?
Thanks.
Jim
Is it code 100 or code 83? Is it DCC freindly?
Well, there could be multiple issues here. First, as South Penn asks, is it “all live” AKA DCC friendly or “Power Routing” older Walthers code 83 or the code 100?
That makes a big difference.
There are eight frogs on a double crossover. Did you wire all eight to the frog juicer?
The four turnout frogs are fairly easily wired. How careful were you with soldering the leads onto the frogs? Any stray wires or excess solder might cause problems.
Did you use four of the outputs, one for each frog? Does the short indicator flash on the Juicer?
Did you use the “Paired frog option” on the juicer? You need to use at least two of the outputs from the Juicer.
http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/images/Hex_Frog_Juicer_Manual_v1_5_2p.pdf
On my double crossover the “turnout” frogs are very short but I powered them using the Tortoise auxiliary switches. The actual crossing frogs (4 of them) are powered pretty well and there really isn’t an easy way to attach any feeders to them that would gain any additional current-carrying improvements.
About all you can do is disconnect all four wires leading to each frog and test them with a meter to be sure each frog is STILL independent of the other rails. Then re connect them one at a time until the problem shows up and that should point to where your problem lies.
Can you post photos or a diagram of how you did your wiring to the frog juicer?
Good Luck, Ed
Trying to attach a photo of package as well as layout and wiring. I can’t figure out how to attach the photo. When I click insert photo it wants the source. Not sure how to answer
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/249194.aspx
Photobucket is a decent hosting site but there are others.
http://photobucket.com/learn/share
Have Fun!
Ed
The standard Walthers Shinohara Code 83 double crossover is DCC Friendly. Is that what you have?
If so, it may be a stall (loss of power in a track segment) rather than a short.
Do all locos exhibit the problem, or just one of them? Which one?
Rich
Did this problem occur befor the hex juicer?
I don’t recall it happening before I installed the juicer.
docjmp, you may have missed this reply, so I am bumping it for you to see in case you missed it the first time.
Rich
I finally figured out how to insert photos. Hope these help with my problem.
So, what you have is the older power routing style double crossover. 948-812 is discontinued at Walthers replaced by the 942-8812.
https://www.walthers.com/code-83-nickel-silver-dcc-friendly-6-turnout-double-crossover
So, the main difference is that the frogs are NOT isolated. They get their power fed through the point rails.
Not all is hopeless. You have two choices or maybe three.
1- you can cut gaps to actually isolate the frog and power it using the frog Juicer. {NOT an easy task to cut the gaps reliably in that tight space!}
2- you can remove the frog juicer and rely on the point rails to provide current to the frog, which you can use the existing wires which you have so neatly soldered to the frogs, but you would need an auxiliary switch, either through a Tortoise switch machine, a single-pole double throw switch (could be a micro-switch) or a Caboose Hobbies ground throw with contacts.
OR 3- you could take that double crossover out and replace it with an “all-live” AKA DCC Friendly double cro$$over.
I would try for option #2. Use the crossover as designed. If you have clean points, the bronze strip is clean and in place (under the points) and you have a switch machine or ground throw that will keep slight force against the stock rail for a good current path, your double crossover should perform very well.
Scroll to the bottom of this page to see what Tam Valley says about using the Frog Juicer with the Double Crossover:
http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/support/frogjuicers.html
Here is a photo of my “heavily weathered” double x-over (I need to clean up the frogs and rails before ballasting).
I believe that is the older (948-812) non-DCC double crossover, not the newer (948-8812) DCC Friendly double crossover.
Ed’s prior reply describes the problems associated with the non-DCC double crossover. It may require some significant work to make it perform correctly.
Rich
Edit Note: Oops, Ed posted his reply while I was typing mine. I will defer to Ed’s comments. My reference to “Ed’s prior reply” was to his Saturday comments. not the ones just posted this morning.
Are you sure about that? Didn’t you install the frog juicer in an attempt to resolve the shorting problem on the divergent routes?
Rich
Thanks, Ed. That is exactly the information I was looking for. I thought that the crossover might be the older one, but wasn’t sure. Now I know why I found it for sale on eBay. LOL.
Jim
Jim, is the double crossover part of a reverse loop? Or, do both straight through routes have the same polarity?
Rich
If you have the “new” version Shinohara C100 double crossovers with the single crossbar per point rail assembly you can try the following “fix” (it works at our club).
Set all 4 switches to the divergent routes. This ensures that all rails in the K-crossings (the upper and lower middle crossings)
are at the same “polarity”. My experience with the newer Shinohara C100 double x-overs has been excellent with no point-to-stock rail shorting and no X-crossing (the left and right
crossings) shorts.
I have four of the older code 100 Shinohara double crossvers on my layout. I don’t have any shorting problems. I just throw all four of the switches at the same time. All are straight through or all are set for crossover.
I tried to make one DCC friendly and trashed a perfectly good switch. YMMV.
The OP has the older power routing Code 83 double crossover, a Walthers Shinohara #948-812.
Rich
A couple of years ago I checked out a Code 83 Shinohara double crossover and a Code 100 Shinohara double crossover at a show, both the older power routing type. The only differences I found were the rail size and price. I bought the Code 100 one as it was $20.00 cheaper.