I have worked on this for awhile. My layout is a loop within a loop Ho code 83 with Atlas remote turnouts all powered. DCC with Zephyr control. I have a Broadway Switcher and a Atlas Dash 8. About 40% of the time the Dash 8 shorts out then resets usually just after I have thrown the switch going from one loop to the other. If I run loco around loop a couple of times seems OK then I throw the switch and problems are back. I have reworked the track made sure all connections are tight cleaned the track and loco and also replaced the turnouts and the loco. (happens with other locos too) but not switcher. I also soldered feeder wires under turnouts by the contact points still shorts. Also have 2 power feeders to track from control
I,m not a DCC operator so perhaps not qualified to answer here but from what I have picked up on it over the past few years is that DCC is real sensitive to dirty track and fluctuations to track power. Could it be that when the switch is thrown, the track power drops or spikes enough to make the decoder shut down and the reset itself? I doubt that the switches are actually creating a short. Since they are atlas switches are you useing track power to operate them. This could be the problem or even operating them from the same power source the track power is useing. Try disconecting the power to the switches and switch them manually and see if the locos still react the same. I’ll bet they will be fine. Ken
This sounds like the problem I was having some time back with live frog turnouts. Myt geeps would go through alright but none of the SD’s could traverse the frogs without shorting. I finally just disconnected the frogs and the shorts stopped.
That sounds like your wheels are maqking contact with an oppisitely charged rail while crossing through the turnout. You need to identify that rail and maybe apply some clear nail polish to the part the wheels touch. I’ve heard of that happewning on crossings where two tracks cross each other.
I believe we need a little clarification and more information here.
Is the short happening just because you threw the turnout or does it only happen when the engine goes through the turnout?
If you have a loop within a loop then you must have two turnouts (a crossover). What is the position of both turnouts when the short happens?
Are the loops insulated from one another? That is, do you perhaps have insulated rail joiners as part of the crossover?
Does the engine run fine on both the outer loop and the inner loop? Does the problem occur in the same place if the engine is going from the inner loop to the outer loop and when the engine is going from the outer loop to the inner loop?
Which Atlas switches are you using (code 83). Number 4’s, 6, 8? Customline? Are you running a wire to the frog and powering the frog?
One thought that I had (but don’t have enough information to say for sure) was that the wiring for the inner loop and the outer loop was wired backwards. If the two loops were insulated from each other everything would run fine until the engine tried to cross from one loop to the other (across the insulation gap). Then you would get a short because the polarity was different between the two loops.
Short happens when engine goes through the turnout. The switch is thrown from the inner loop to outer loop engine shorts out same place each time. When switches are thrown straight ahead (closed) on both loops engine runs fine.
Now when I switch from outerloop to inner loop makes it through that turnout fine, but when I switch back to go back to outer loop shorts at that turnout same place each time. Turnout is Atlas snap code 83 #541 does not say 4,6 or 8. These are remote switches with plastic frogs how can you power these. Yes wiring connections are correct on both loops.
Please explain insulated rail joiners. Do I need them? Are they plastic joiners if so where do I install them.
You need auto-reverse modules connected to these turnaround loops to change the phase of the DCC signal as you enter or exit the loop. A reverse module also requires insulated rail joiners on all the rails at or near the turnouts. Read the thread, “Wiring for DCC.”
Can you post a track plan? You might have a reverse loop in your track plan that is not properly wired with either manual toggle switches or an automatic reversing circuit to flip the polarity of the reverse section.
If your layout is similar to what Jeff drew above – two simple loops with a crossover – then you do not need insulated rail joiners and you do not have a reversing loop.
Atlas #541 is a “Snap Switch” which, like you said, has plastic frogs. Other Atlas code 83 turnouts such as a Customline #6 has an unpowered metal frog.
Based upon your description: Position of the turnouts themselves is not a problem. Travel from outer loop to inner loop is fine. Travel from inner loop to outer loop is the problem. You did not say where the short occurs. Is the engine crossing the inner loop turnout or the outer loop turnout at the time of the short?
First thing to do in any case: Check the guage of the wheels on the engine. If you do not have an NMRA guage, get one. If the wheels are out of guage then that could be causing the short.
Check the “play” in the point rails (the moveable rails) of the Snap Switches. If they wiggle or flop over then they could be making contact when they should not.
In general, if your configuration is similar to that of Jeff’s drawing then you really should not be using “Snap Switches” for the crossover. Snap Switches have a very tight, 18" radius and a crossover creates an “S” curve. Very tight S curves can cause all sorts of problems since an engine is being thrown in one direction and then immediately in another direction. You should definately replace the Snap Switches in a crossover with a minimum of Atlas #4 turnouts (# 561/562) and if possible with #6 turnouts (#563/564). Even if you get your problem fixed and the engine goes through the the current crossover OK, a string of cars may not.
So the things to check are: Wheels out of guage causing a short. Point rails loose and causing a short.
IT WOULD HELP if you would show where you are attaching power to the tracks, per Jeff’s diagram.
1.IDEALY would be to have TWO power connections - one for each loop - and a pair of (code 83) insulated rail joiners separating the switches.
2.Atlas switches maintain polarity throughout. You should not be having ‘shorting’ problems - If so, i suspect you are alsorunning power backward to the inner track somehow. START by separating the switches.
3**.**Another possibility is your crossover is using 2 ‘snap’ switches & bad geometry is causing shorting problems. If so, # 6’s are the cure.
4.Atlas switches can cause ‘OPENS’ with some locomotives, due to their dead frogs. An ‘open’ is when the track is not able to pass any power to the engine. The choice of engines is the problem (electrical pickup).
A ‘short’ is a sudden low resistance path for the electricity that pops the fused ‘reset’ button. BOTH STOP THE ENGINE. Run your engine very slooowly across the switch to see.
THERE IS the remote possibility that one of your turnouts are defective - frogs are hot or jumpers miswired, but I suspect it is one of #s 1 - 4,
Power routing turnouts will cause a short to occur if you don’t put insulated rail joiners on the inside frog rails just past the frog. As soon as you throw one of the turnouts for the crossover, you will get a short and things will stop dead.
Just because you are using DCC, you still need to consider insulating the rail connections in certain locations around turnouts (called “cutting gaps” in classical DC wiring terms).
Get yourself a good Model Railroading wiring book and study it. Armed with this information you will be able to figure out most any track wiring short quickly. Here’s a used one on ebay for a few bucks …
it sounds like you are having the same problem i’m having with peco insufrog turnouts in n scale. the cause in my situation is that the wheels touch the oposite rail when passing over the frog causing a short and stopping my dcc locos. i have some atlas ho code 83 turnouts and the rails coming off the back of the frog are very close to each other. try putting some paint or nail polish on the rails to extend the insulation to see if that is your problem. i didn’t have this problem until i installed an empire builder system. everything worked ok on dc. it seems that the response to a short is quicker with the dcc system. i’m replacing all the insulfrog switches with electro frogs. they eliminate the trouble but require more feeders though.
my layout is close to your picture but I have 2 more turnouts before the ones you show for a total of 4 turnouts. The first inner loop turnout is a right hand so the loco goes over the frog first then the points it shorts at the points. I have put different turnouts at that spot and all shorted out (I cant see 4 different turnouts being bad). I have a set of feeders on the inner loop at the beginning of the turnout and a set on the outer loop at the beginning of the turnout.
Happens on other locos so I doubt wheels are off
Others suggest insulated joiners (are these plastic) If so where do I put them.
I agree with all thats said here, but one question keeps comeing to mind that no one has addressed yet. The original post stated that (several ?) locos “short” out at this switch, then reset themselves, yet another loco (switcher) goes through fine. Are we sure these locos are “shorting” out or have they momentarily lost power. Haveing said this, is the loco resetting itself or is the power supply resetting it self? If it’s the power supply resetting, then I would definately say it’s a short. Maybe a check of the track power with a multimeter when this happens would be a help here. Like I state before, I’m not a DCC expert, and maybe I shouldn’t be responding here, but electricity is electricity and no matter how it’s used, some rules still apply. Now with all I’ve said in mind, my thoughts return to the plasic frog in those snap switches. Could it be that maybe the locos in question have a momentarily loss of power there and if flywheel equiped have enough momentum to get past that plastic frog to again recieve power and reset the decoder? From what pls12 writes, my thoughts are not the turnouts, except they may have too sharp of radius for the locos he’s running (switcher goes through fine),but the locos trying to snake through two opposite tight turns. Just my thoughts here and trying to be helpful. Ken
